Aibu to think most European countries don't have an Education class system or a class system at all?

[Stellanotbud]

Aibu to think that most European countries especially former communist countries don't have a class system or educational class system like the UK.. Most kids all go to state school & muddle along? Snobbery isn't a prevelant in most European countries & educational standards are high & mostly state run.

@Mooshamoo most people in the UK do not go to private school it's about 7% and even people who did are mostly lovely - my mums family for instance - sounds like your English family are not nice people - i dont think that is related necessarily to their education or where they are from. do I think sending kids to boarding school at 8 is awful yes, do I think that private school education are over represented in higher part of society yes, can I ask which country you are living in?

Aibu to think that most European countries especially former communist countries don't have a class system or educational class system like the UK.. Most kids all go to state school & muddle along? Snobbery isn't a prevelant in most European countries & educational standards are high & mostly state run.

You couldn't be more wrong here. I'm from the former USSR. There was very clear distinction between "elite" schools for the ruling class, and those for commoners. Even though private education is fairly new, but those exclusive "elite" schools haven't gone anywhere.

I completely agree with the original post.
I was brought up in one of those ex communist countries, came from a minority, parents not rich...Went to the local primary school - all schools seen as equally good - went to local Gymnasium (entry exam), went to Uni (based on entry exam results again). Had friends throughout and was not made to feel less.

I moved to the U.K. in 2001 and remember that's when I first realised what actually class system meant and was a bit shocked how evident it was.

For me the most unfortunate thing as a result of such a clear societal division is the 'chav' culture - there are awful lot of intolerant, uneducated people who appear to lack any sort of morals.
Very similar to what you get with Roma in the EE counties, I guess, so not saying they've figured it out either although there the issue is racial. When you push people to the margins you get the worse from them.

Germany definitely has a class system - you have the very old money ancient aristocrat titled families. It had a monarchy until quite recently in history after all - in fact, many monarchies given it was separate states/principalities.

It's true there are fewer private schools but that is because a lot of the Very Old Posh German families then send their kids to boarding school in England or Switzerland. Possibly boarding school in the east coast US if they are a bit more modern.

Same as France - the aristocratic families still exist there even if titles are not used much. The kids are in school in private Catholic schools in France (Lycée Saint-Louis-de-Gonzague or Saint Jean de Passay in Paris) or boarding in Switzerland or England.

Lycée Saint-Louis-de-Gonzague is a lot cheaper than Eton but don't imagine that they let in any riff raff.

If you look at the background of a lot of French business leaders (ceo of Michelin or Axa for example) you will see they from titled nobility.

But do you think it's fair to people in the "lower classes"?

The only way that middle class people feel good about themselves is by deciding that other people are worth less than them.

You can't be "middle class" unless you are saying that someone is worth less than you.

Yet you see women describing themselves as middle class on here on Mumsnet all the time . They know they are talking about an extremely abusive system. Yet they talk about being "middle class" like it's so normal.

How can any human be worth less than any other human?

The most expensive schools in the world are all in Switzerland.

Every country absolutely has a class system of some sort just different to the English one but they definitely exist. I'm Irish and I am always drawn to the "should I sacrifice everything nice in my life for private school fees" threads and I'm always absolutely astounded by the sacrifices people will make as we don't even have a private primary school in my area so I'm always shocked thinking is it a MN thing or are schools really that bad. DD heading to secondary in the next two years so lots of secondary school chat but private just isn't a thing where I am. There is one private school and I'm sure its lovely but it's not highly sought after or considered amazing or anything like that

How can any human be worth less than any other human?

Humans determine their own worth. There is certainly a big element of pride of identifying with "the poor", or "growing up poor".

Nothing wrong with "middle class" though. So you had decent standard of living, educated parents who had respectable jobs, and provided you with positive experiences and opportunities.

There will always be the don't haves, can't haves, won't haves. It is not your or your child's fault.

The thing that is wrong with the middle class, and you and I both know it, is that they look down on the working class, and won't even talk to people from the working class a lot of the time.

Middle-class is about constantly defining yourself as middle class, by looking down your nose at someone else.

Middle class cannot exist at all unless they have someone else to sneer and laugh at.

You will see people say that "they will only shop at such and such a shop, because it's middle class". They won't shop at other shops because working class people go there.

@Ingrowncrotchhair sadly no but my best friend is Portuguese and I’ve spent a lot of time there. I love it, it’s lovely to spend time in a country where you feel the government actually wants to help people. The average wage is low & it’s still one of the poorest countries in the EU but the education system is good, lisbon in particular is very cosmopolitan as well as being an incredibly beautiful city & they’re very progressive generally. There’s a large British community in lisbon & Porto & most people under 50 speak English if you don’t speak Portuguese. I’d move there tomorrow if I could!

Your father's school experience is very different to the vast majority of English people. Only about 7% go to private school and most of them are not boarding school. A much smaller %age go to boarding, especially from such a young age.

Your view of England is much different to mine. I will def which areas in England you have visited and how you encountered all these cold, cruel strangers who were so unpleasant.

Where do you live?

The thing that is wrong with the middle class, and you and I both know it, is that they look down on the working class, and won't even talk to people from the working class a lot of the time.

Utter nonsense. If "looking down" means i wouldn't want to work certain jobs myself, and i wouldn't wish it on my kids; or i don't talk to them because we have nothing in common and not much to talk about - then yes. But then, class also means having manners and respect.

True, but they are almost entirely full of foreigners.

True, but they are almost entirely full of foreigners.

Quote didn't come up first time!

@Mooshamoo , I think your experience is unusual.

in my experience people are the same where ever you go. Most decent, some arseholes, a whole mix and everyone as individuals also have a mix, but generally in my experience folks are decent in the majority with a minority who are not.

class systems exist in every culture in the world. Because it’s actually about wealth and power.

You say your experience of England is different than mine.

First of all are you fully English?
Because if you are, of course your experience is going to be much more friendly and welcoming than mine is, in England. If you are English it would be a bit naive of you to say that because you are treated very nicely , then everyone else must be treated nicely in England.

People who are half English, half another country, like me, often get treated like shit in England.

Even though I was born in England, if I visit England now, I get told to fuck off back to my own country .

I remember being in England one time. One man at a bus stop asked me what I was doing there. I said something happily like "I'm over here to visit". I was in a good mood.

He said to me "are you over here stealing our jobs? Fuck off back to your own country!!!. ".

I, taken aback, said "well actually I was born in England, my family just moved abroad when I was a child". Even though I shouldn't need to explain myself to any stranger.

He glared at me and said "well you don't fucking sound like you were born here! Fuck off to your own country

@Mooshamoo

But worth isn't a measure of class, not even financial worth but certainly not worth to society so I'm not sure why you are conflating the two. So middle class doesn't mean you are " worth" more than someone who classifies themselves as working class, just different!

The thing that is wrong with the middle class, and you and I both know it, is that they look down on the working class, and won't even talk to people from the working class a lot of the time

You have a very tainted view of English people , possibly due to your father's family I guess - who do appear to be from a very small sector of England based in his schools, etc. It's almost as if your talking about an old fashioned version of the 'upper classes' from Downton Abbey or similar.

Your version of England is very different to what I know, what I live and breathe daily. Your average 'middle class' parent isn't using boarding schools, mostly not using private schools, shop is a wide range of shops/supermarkets, work alongside a diverse range of people, etc.

Yabu, class systems exist all over Europe, In Italy the wealthiest families in Florence today are the same as the wealthiest families in the 1400s. I guess we just don't notice it as much because b) we don't live there and b) aren't as familiar with the terminologies/indicators.

cepr.org/voxeu/columns/whats-your-surname-intergenerational-mobility-over-six-centuries

I think you're wrong.

If middle class doesn't mean that you are worth more, than why do middle class people often laugh and sneer at the working class, and refuse to mix with them.

Middle class people only mix with middle class people.

I see a similar class system here in Ireland. It's not as extreme as the uk. But it is definitely there. If you have money you are seen as worth more.. I know some men at my work that went to private school in ireland. Outside of work, they will only socialise with other men who also went to private school, and who play rugby.

There is an old boys club. The private school boys in Ireland all play rugby together and all help each other get good jobs. They will not mix with poor people in and way shape or form .

Well yes, I am fully English as you call it. But I still don't recognise what your saying about England as a whole.

Yes, racism exists, as does other forms of discrimination but this is not the case for the vast majority of English people. Racism and xenophobia exists in almost every country across the world.

I'm simply expressing surprise that you are encountering so many cold, cruel, nasty strangers in England. Having family and friends who have moved here from other countries, or who visit here on holidays, it simply isn't an experience I've witnessed.

I'm interested in where in England you have been visiting, and where you live yourself.

Middle class people only mix with middle class people.

You know some very strange people if this is your only experience.
Your average family will have members that span the difference 'classes' and people work with, and socialise with, people outwith their 'class' all the time.

I know class exists but much less so than in the past and, ime, most people aren't really interested in it particularly.

I think class system exists everywhere. Everywhere has a better families, better areas, better schools. There might not be an official ranking but people talk and know.

If middle class doesn't mean that you are worth more, than why do middle class people often laugh and sneer at the working class, and refuse to mix with them. Middle class people only mix with middle class people

I’ve never seen this, I’m also not English but have live here over 2 decades. My own social circle spans both classes.

I think you're in denial, because you live there all the time. To be honest.