£14 an hour for a doctor ?!

[gardenlife]

Junior doctor says she can't afford to start family www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-65275409

Wait hang on - the article shows the payslip and this doctor is only on £14 an hour. Having to lay in excess of £1600 for their own exams.

That's not much more than minimum wage is it? Yes she has £80k plus debt from studies.

I agree with minimum wage being increased but this is closing the gap between non professional jobs and professionals

Surely they deserve more?

I'm sure that landlords who rent flats to junior doctors say 'ah it's ok, pay what you can now, because your salary will be high in a few years'. Not.

No offence but why are we comparing an HGV driver (which I think you can do without having GCSEs) and highly skilled doctors who need to be top of their class grades wise to even make it to medical school, train for 5 years at university, many more years of training and a level of skill that most of us can't even imagine (particularly surgeons!)

This thread shows that people fundamentally don't understand that some jobs require significantly more skill, training and intelligence than others!

I work for the NHS & fully support the junior doctors (& nurses) but no matter what your opinion this is the crux of the matter, in order to retain doctors & nurses the pay & conditions need to be good enough to make the UK an enticing place to work which at the moment it is no where near that!

So when it comes to CEOS, bankers and other such vital members of humanity, "you get what you pay for" and "if you don't pay fabulous wages you won't get the best" but it's a different story when you come to people in professions that actually contribute directly to society it's a different story?? I sometimes wonder about people in this country and how their brains work...

Because if you read my post you would see I was talking about working conditions and agreeing that it was crazy that doctors are expected to work such long shifts when there are other jobs that have a cap on hours due to the dangers of working when tired and lacking concentration.
unless you think that by being sooo highly skilled, intelligent and important means you can concentrate for 12hrs+ cos you is so brilliant.

wow, way to loose the little sympathy that people have 🙄

This - £58k IS a low salary for the skill and expertise. The vast majority of the population couldn’t do the job of a doctor. It should be a role that is seen as prestigious and something to be proud of. The NHS is no longer fit for purpose.

She was comparing the rules of having a break so you did not endanger lives. HGV drivers by law has to have breaks so he is not driving while tired. All employed staff are legally meant to have breaks. Management should be making sure that breaks are being taken by doctors.

So what? I can empathise. Noonesaid every dr is on that. I'm on £24ph. I was trying to find a cleaner last week as my life is a mess and couldn't find any asking less than £19ph

No registrar is on 100k that's delusional.

Speciality Dr is a totally different pay scheme as they are neither trainees nor consultants

A consultant starts on 88k. They don't breech 100k until 9 years as a consultant (ie a bare minimum of 18yrs as a Dr, in most cases far more as most don't stick to the 7y speciality training as have enforced gap years to meet registrar entry points

www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/consultants-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-consultants-in-england

@BungleandGeorge

"What is so amazing about the pension?"

Are you.. are you joking?! 🤔

It's a hugely valuable benefit that those of us with DC pensions will get nowhere near replicating.

@ajenniejonesworld no I am in a career job that required me to be in less pay to obtain further training and experience that equated to better pay in the long term though.

Where will the money come from to pay these higher salaries especially given that once junior doctors get paid more anyone above them will thereafter expect to be paid more.

If THAT is what what you took from that post then you are a proper cunt

All spin. They want 35% increase which is a piss take. Doctors used their power to get out of agenda for change payscales that the other nhs oiks have to deal with. Their pay and conditions will progress astronomically compared to all other nhs professions very quickly, so i have no sympathy for sucking up a few years of hardship just like everyone else training to do a profession has to.

As for the payslip comparison from 10-20 years ago and APPARENT little change in pay....please look at the details. The old payslip was from working more than twice the hours. So yes there's little difference to today's payslip but because it's for half the hours!!! All selective "evidence" they are using.

But so have lots of other professions.
Surely no one expects to be able to afford to start a family the year after graduating? I certainly wouldn't have been able to and I had 8 years of University education.
I also have nowhere near the earning potential of a junior doctor.
Work conditions are awful and I don't blame people for leaving the profession but I think it's that aspect that we should be focusing on. I suspect a lot of doctors would rather keep the same salary and much safer and fairer working conditions, than earn more in their current conditions.

Eh? I work no different hours from 2014 to now. My pay has gone up 13ph since then

Working hours haven't changed since I started as European working time directive has always been in force

They kinda come together. Need to retain staff and make it appealing for people to join in order to staff the rota adequately to not work crap hours with under 20min break per 12.5h

NHS has a monopoly in doctors employment. Most professions have a choice in who they work for, if they don't like the terms and conditions they can choose a different employer.

My DH is a Dr. It took over 10 years to get to 70k and so much stress and constant training for those 10 years and the exams really do cost a lot. Not just exams but also medical insurance and constant membership and registration fees which are not cheap and they have to continue to pay these for the rest of their careers. In addition to the 5 year student loans.
I don’t think you can compare the level of responsibility these Drs have. The stress my DH had of being the only Dr on site covering the premature neonatal unit and having to intubate these babies in the middle of the night or they die. I really don’t feel their requests are unreasonable and it’s scary when I think of the state of the NHS at the moment.

Regardless of what outsiders to the profession think, the pay and conditions are clearly insufficient to retain doctors in the country. They can easily leave for places where they're treated better, and will do so in increasing numbers.

I am a junior doctor in Australia, and about 1 in 5 of my colleagues are now from the UK or Ireland. Almost none of them plan to return. We are delighted to have them, and it compensates for some of our own problems with doctor training, but I can't help thinking there must be an utter disaster on the horizon for the UK, with this level of brain drain.

So most people agree. Doctors are highly qualified and probably should be paid more.

Now what? The UK has the weakest economic growth in the G20. Q1 showed economic stagnation. The country is producing less than it did. We just raised corporation and person tax to the point where the tax burden is at a 70 year high.

How are these pay rises going to be paid for?

Again. Not seeing what your point is?

You're saying "no-one said every Dr is on that?

This thread is in response to the propaganda put out by the BMA seeking sympathy for their unreasonable pay demand of a 35% increase because 'Dr's are paid £14 an hour which is less than a barista"

That was the marketing strategy which led to this thread. Which had a huge backlash even from BMA members.

I said that was the starting point for F1 Drs in their foundation year in training.

You keep coming back saying virtually all non-consultant Dr's are in training and so are you and you're making £24 an hour.

So you're not a Dr making £14 an hour? Very few are. That was the point of the thread.

That it's propaganda to say "Drs are making £14 an hour" when that means the few Drs not registered with the GMC who just came out of medical school.

And even if you're making £14 or £24 an hour, you are paid extra for unsociable hours like everyone else.

In my hospital trust, anyone working for the NHS for 10 years like you said you almost had, gets 6+ weeks annual leave plus bank holidays in lieu and six months full sick pay, six months half and a pension with 20% employers contributions.

So your hourly rate is in no way comparable to someone in the public sector earning the same.

So it should never be judged on hourly rates.

You're saying consultant starting rates of 88k as if it's something terrible when I know consultants in their mid 30s earning that. They go up to 100k annum quickly and retire at 50/55 on million plus pensions. And come back as locums a day or so a week making hundreds of £ a day.

GP partners often earn similar.

Absolutely agree. I am also a teacher and it is hard work, but not comparable in level of study needed or working hours/responsibility to be a doctor.

Well it doesn't have to be either extreme - you could have public health insurance like France.

Passion doesn't pay the bills. And as you can see on this thread, the public just don't get it. Comparing them to cleaners, HGV drivers, social workers, blah2.

The people who have even managed to get into medical school are highly driven, motivated individuals. They have plenty of options for leaving the profession, that pay significantly higher salaries. Consultancy firms, pharma, tech etc it's very possible to be on 80K with pension contributions + bonus by the age of 30. Why would any other professions' salary be relevant to them?

Perhaps 'salary' is not the right lever, maybe open more medical schools, training places etc who think that what they get paid is a huge amount and increase the supply. I think the defining factor of how bad the UK is though, for doctors is that even those from less developed countries who traditionally choose to migrate to the UK are going elsewhere. They don't want to put up with it either, and they are usually more compliant. Source - my family and friends/

It’s obvious they don’t get paid enough nor do nurses hence why lots are leaving to go abroad for double the wages, who could blame them, when Covid hit they took the brunt of the work, annual leave etc was cancelled and they just got on with it.
You can’t compare teachers as they get 13 weeks holiday, don’t spend their days saving lives, and don’t have to do shift work.

I didnt at any point say consultant salary was a poor. Purely that the figures you quoted are incorrect.

8835 graduated last year and are on that salary. That's not a few
https://www.statista.com/statistics/473206/medical-graduates-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

If you went through every year of training with no time out or extensions or breaks the earliest you can hit 100k is 40yo

Can't say I know any retiring at 50 cos it would have to be totally self funded given you can't claim your NHS pension that young. Thos retiring early do so because the tax system is not designed for medics and they're getting tens of thousands in tax bills, many I know have had to remortgage to pay them. And funnily enough they don't want to have to pay to work

I didn’t say you said it was poor, I said you said as if it was and that you'd have to work 9+ years as a consultant to earn over 100k when your previous posts were saying lots of colleagues you know are still training and not near consultant wage in their 40s let alone 100k.

So I said I know consultants in their 30s earning at least 88k and rising rapidly. Which allows them to retire in their 50s.

Which many do. If you're earning 80-100k + in your late 30s and then 40s, you have enough savings to put away to enable you to retite even before the fantastic pension kicks in.

I'm not going to feel sorry for Dr's retiring 10-15 years plus before the general population because they have tax bills. Like I said, they come back to do a few shifts locum making 100s of pounds a day to cover that.

I work in psychiatry by the wayl Dr's but the career progression is usually quicker and the retirement ages on savings probably different.

Which is why the view of Dr's salarys like any other role in the NHS, shouldn't be based on the absolute worst of salaries or roles.

Because they apply to the very few.