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£14 an hour for a doctor ?!

161 replies

gardenlife · 15/04/2023 07:26

Junior doctor says she can't afford to start family www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-65275409

Wait hang on - the article shows the payslip and this doctor is only on £14 an hour. Having to lay in excess of £1600 for their own exams.

That's not much more than minimum wage is it? Yes she has £80k plus debt from studies.

I agree with minimum wage being increased but this is closing the gap between non professional jobs and professionals

Surely they deserve more?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
IhearyouClemFandango · 15/04/2023 08:35

*This suggests that the average full-time doctor in one of the BMA’s four junior doctor pay grades earned about £43,000 per year in basic pay—and significantly more if you include non-basic pay.

There are many different ways of using these figures to calculate an average hourly rate, and there is some uncertainty in the data, but in general it suggests a range of roughly £20-30 per hour.

These rates may be higher now, as they include pay from 2021/22, when salaries were lower than they are in the current financial year (not accounting for inflation).

None of these figures necessarily represent the pay of the junior doctors who are on strike, as BMA members may not be representative of junior doctors as a whole.

A BMA spokesperson told us: “Of course, our campaign is not suggesting £14.09 is the hourly basic rate for all junior doctors, as this title covers everyone from newly-graduated medics to people who have been working for 8-to-10 years or more as doctors.”

What about Pret’s figure?
We also contacted Pret a Manger, which confirmed that pay for a “team member” in one of its shops would increase on 1 April to £10.60-11.90 per hour, depending on location and experience (or £11.85-13.15 per hour with a performance-related bonus), and for a “barista” to £11.20-12.85, or £12.45-14.10 with the bonus.*

From the Full Fact article. Also worth noting that they divided the total over 365 days of the year to get to £14, which obviously is an 'unusual' was of doing it.

The pay isn't ridiculous for a new starter, especially given pension 3tc. Paying for your own training and quals, insurance etc isn't unusual either. However they would have an argument that working conditions within the NHS should be improved. Being paid more doesn't solve that.

HisOliveTree · 15/04/2023 08:36

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 08:29

Depending on the old banding. I had 2 jobs (gp and anaesthetics/icu) but there's loads like sexual health psych etc that dont have oncalls so the pay drop is dramatic on those rotas (also nice to not work weekends/nights and feel slightly human again) but I had to work extra shifts to cover expenses during them

True, but most rotations will have an out of hours component for 8 months of the first 12 at least.

x2boys · 15/04/2023 08:36

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 08:29

Depending on the old banding. I had 2 jobs (gp and anaesthetics/icu) but there's loads like sexual health psych etc that dont have oncalls so the pay drop is dramatic on those rotas (also nice to not work weekends/nights and feel slightly human again) but I had to work extra shifts to cover expenses during them

Granted its been 8 years since i waa a mental health nurse ,but we always had on call junior Drs ,that covered both the wards and A&E .

Gingernaut · 15/04/2023 08:36

I'm a shift working admin body in a hospital

I have nothing like the responsibility of any doctor

I work long shifts, sometimes up to 16 hours, but nothing like the 'on call' hours a doctor works

If I'm paid correctly, I net more than junior doctors, sometimes up to £1k more

My overtime and antisocial hours are all far more generous than those for junior doctors

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 08:39

Trina1234 · 15/04/2023 08:34

I love the fact that these striking junior doctors seem to be an average age of 25 ? But they want backpay for their proffesion being underpaid from 15 years ago !!! Ffs they were probably not even doing a paper round and want a pay rise backdated to their 11th birthday ..wake up and smell the roses doctor ..your suffering from a severe case of STUPIDITY ..and they seem to be struggling with basic maths because that £14 an hour figure that they keep spouting about just doesnt add up

I'm 32 and was on day 1 pickets, the rest of the days I spent writing my masters degree essay, and doing the trillion pages of admin and sign off so I can pass my end of year review in 2 weeks. Most of my colleagues my age were revising for their exams to continue training, so you will see more juniors there as they haven't yet got the joys of exams on their plates.

(And to be honest I just got ID'd to buy a lighter for my candles yesterday so of you saw me you probably also would assume I was a 24yo lol

Reallybadidea · 15/04/2023 08:40

Trina1234 · 15/04/2023 08:34

I love the fact that these striking junior doctors seem to be an average age of 25 ? But they want backpay for their proffesion being underpaid from 15 years ago !!! Ffs they were probably not even doing a paper round and want a pay rise backdated to their 11th birthday ..wake up and smell the roses doctor ..your suffering from a severe case of STUPIDITY ..and they seem to be struggling with basic maths because that £14 an hour figure that they keep spouting about just doesnt add up

Just a thought, but have you considered that you might have misunderstood this?

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 08:43

x2boys · 15/04/2023 08:36

Granted its been 8 years since i waa a mental health nurse ,but we always had on call junior Drs ,that covered both the wards and A&E .

Depends on the hospital but it's actual psych trainees that cover the out of hours oncalls rather than f1/2 making the decisions (some hospitals band the f1/f2 psych juniors if they need more numbers on the ground to help

SadandFed · 15/04/2023 08:43

F1 Drs are still in training, fresh out of medical school, can only perform certain tasks, have fewer responsibilities and they're not fully registered with the GMC during the 1st year.

The first 2 years are foundation years which are officially called foundation programme internships.

Mummyoflittledragon · 15/04/2023 08:49

SadandFed · 15/04/2023 08:43

F1 Drs are still in training, fresh out of medical school, can only perform certain tasks, have fewer responsibilities and they're not fully registered with the GMC during the 1st year.

The first 2 years are foundation years which are officially called foundation programme internships.

According to a recent thread on this subject from an op, who posted a payslip from 2021, they were paid £14 an hour as an f1. They said they were therefore an f1 during lockdown, resuscitating patients several times a night, prescribing medication and often left alone.

CouldIHaveThatInEnglishPlease · 15/04/2023 08:50

Yeah I’m sorry, I just can’t get worked up about doctors being underpaid. Working conditions? One hindered percent, but pay? Nah, you guys are doing alright.
Dh has just completed HGV training. By law he is only allowed to drive for a maximum 9hrs a day and by law he must take a 45minute break after 4.5hrs driving, because otherwise he could endanger lives. I find it crazy that driving for 5hours is considered so dangerous but doctors can work for 12hrs with barely any break. That does need to change, the conditions are terrible and, quite frankly, dangerous

Sodthebloodypicnic · 15/04/2023 08:51

I don't think the argument 'an FY1 salary (£14ph) is a good starting salary with quick progression' is going to fly unfortunately.

FY1 equivalents make twice my pay in Aus/NZ/HK/Canada and their progression is rewarded fairly with yearly pay increases for accumulated experience and fair OOH remuneration.

My monthly take home is 2138.
Based on 40hrs/wk base salary (at £14ph)+ mandatory additional average 8hrs/week(at £14ph) + 1 in 4 weekends (146.00pm for 2x12.5hr weekend shifts) + 37% increase on night hours (after 9pm before 6pm).
My rota is very heavy on OOH work due to the specialty.

I have >80k in student debt.

I hear a lot 'the NHS paid for your training'. It objectively didn't, I did in loans and working as an HCA and my parents sacrifice.
The 'pay jump' when you become a reg isn't enough to justify staying in the UK when I can have a better deal and ultimately quality of life abroad.

If you want doctors to stay in the UK you have to pay a fair competitive wage for doctors skills.

SadandFed · 15/04/2023 08:51

Mummyoflittledragon · 15/04/2023 08:49

According to a recent thread on this subject from an op, who posted a payslip from 2021, they were paid £14 an hour as an f1. They said they were therefore an f1 during lockdown, resuscitating patients several times a night, prescribing medication and often left alone.

Which they shouldn't have been. Lots of things happened during the pandemic which shouldn't have.

marshmallowsforbreakfast · 15/04/2023 08:53

It isn't correct and the payslip posted is very misleading. This is for an F1 who is fresh out of uni, and doesn't taken into considering any additional that they all get. Don't be fooled.

Grumpsy · 15/04/2023 08:56

marshmallowsforbreakfast · 15/04/2023 08:53

It isn't correct and the payslip posted is very misleading. This is for an F1 who is fresh out of uni, and doesn't taken into considering any additional that they all get. Don't be fooled.

Are you actually expecting people to stay up all night, work anti social hrs at all hours of the night with people’s lives in their hands for no enhancement in their pay?

sounds like you do from your post.

sashagabadon · 15/04/2023 08:57

we also hear about 50 year old consultants adding so much to their pensions in the previous 25 years that they go over the limit of 1 million pension pot ( now removed) that they no longer want to work.
so I think junior doctors will be ok

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 09:03

SadandFed · 15/04/2023 08:43

F1 Drs are still in training, fresh out of medical school, can only perform certain tasks, have fewer responsibilities and they're not fully registered with the GMC during the 1st year.

The first 2 years are foundation years which are officially called foundation programme internships.

I'm still in training at 32. I still have 2.5 y left of training, have been full time since 2014. If you dare have children or go part time or dual train like itu or head/neck surgery, many are still in training in their 40s

TheMarzipanDildo · 15/04/2023 09:04

They are leaving in their droves. Limited supply + increased demand = a more expensive commodity. It’s not even a moral issue (well it is) it’s just the market economy.

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 09:04

sashagabadon · 15/04/2023 08:57

we also hear about 50 year old consultants adding so much to their pensions in the previous 25 years that they go over the limit of 1 million pension pot ( now removed) that they no longer want to work.
so I think junior doctors will be ok

Anyone beyond 2015 have a totally different pension scheme that's far worse than such consultants as no longer final salary (we still have a good pension but nothing like said pensions

SadandFed · 15/04/2023 09:05

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 09:03

I'm still in training at 32. I still have 2.5 y left of training, have been full time since 2014. If you dare have children or go part time or dual train like itu or head/neck surgery, many are still in training in their 40s

Yes. Not in the foundation programme, without full GMC registration and earning £14 an hour basic though are you?

Throwncrumbs · 15/04/2023 09:06

thesmee · 15/04/2023 07:33

An F1 doctor posted their payslip on TikTok from covid to show how low it was. It was about £1900 net a month, which is my take-home pay as on something like £36,000 (have lost track). I don't disagree they're underpaid, and there is a recruitment and retention crisis so clearly something needs to be done, but I think the £14 an hour is disingenuous. They get more for unsociable hours etc. A year or two after they graduated, all my doctor friends and family were earning in 3 days what I did in 5, in another professional job. It's not anywhere near enough, but it's hardly NMW.

Yes they get more for unsocial hours. Have you ever worked nights?, Christmas Day? weekends? People who say ‘ they get more for unsocial hours’ clearly have never worked unsocial hours. Boils my pi££!

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 09:17

marshmallowsforbreakfast · 15/04/2023 08:53

It isn't correct and the payslip posted is very misleading. This is for an F1 who is fresh out of uni, and doesn't taken into considering any additional that they all get. Don't be fooled.

That's my last payslip of f1. We got paid slightly differently as I'm old (haha) but banding is basically a block payment for every one of your evening, nights, weekend shifts as a lump sum, probably not in our favour as rate says 4.34)

10.85ph

£14 an hour for a doctor ?!
Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 09:19

SadandFed · 15/04/2023 09:05

Yes. Not in the foundation programme, without full GMC registration and earning £14 an hour basic though are you?

Sorry don't understand your point? We are still trainees

The government just likes to keep the trainee title as it infantalises us and makes the public associate us with being medical students not fully qualified professionals

Reallybadidea · 15/04/2023 09:19

TheMarzipanDildo · 15/04/2023 09:04

They are leaving in their droves. Limited supply + increased demand = a more expensive commodity. It’s not even a moral issue (well it is) it’s just the market economy.

This.

The traditional Tory argument against higher taxes for high earners is that they end up relocating to countries where they will pay less tax and the country as a whole loses out. This is exactly the reason why doctors need to be paid more - because otherwise they go elsewhere.

Bobbybobbins · 15/04/2023 09:23

It's all very well lots of people who aren't doctors saying 'the pay and progression are fine as other professions get paid less' Clearly it's not fine as so many are leaving the profession!!!!

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 09:27

thesmee · 15/04/2023 07:33

An F1 doctor posted their payslip on TikTok from covid to show how low it was. It was about £1900 net a month, which is my take-home pay as on something like £36,000 (have lost track). I don't disagree they're underpaid, and there is a recruitment and retention crisis so clearly something needs to be done, but I think the £14 an hour is disingenuous. They get more for unsociable hours etc. A year or two after they graduated, all my doctor friends and family were earning in 3 days what I did in 5, in another professional job. It's not anywhere near enough, but it's hardly NMW.

We get zero additional pay for working saturdays (no idea why that was accepted by the last contract change)

We get zero additional salary for working a bank holiday (I've somehow been rostered the last 9!) We work a 12.5-13h day on a bank hol and get a 8h day shift in lieu, that's it

I've worked every single Christmas apart from 2 since I graduated in 2014, that being 13h days 24th-27th Dec as we run rolling rotas so if you are due oncall then it's tough luck (you can't argue I worked last year as you're since in a new hospital).

Again, no extra pay as its a BH (that's where the signs come from that a Dr is often the lowest paid when working a BH as all others on A4C will get significant uplifts for working such shifts, I've lost count how many times I've been asked 'are you working this for the extra' as the nurses forget we don't get BH uplift

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