Page 4 | £14 an hour for a doctor ?!

gardenlife · 2023-04-15T06:26:59+00:00

Junior doctor says she can't afford to start family https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-65275409 Wait hang on - the article shows the payslip and this doctor is only on £14 an hour. Having to lay in excess of £1600 for their own exams. That's not much more than minimum wage is it? Yes she has £80k plus debt from studies. I agree with minimum wage being increased but this is closing the gap between non professional jobs and professionals Surely they deserve more?

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 09:31

TheMarzipanDildo · 15/04/2023 09:04

They are leaving in their droves. Limited supply + increased demand = a more expensive commodity. It’s not even a moral issue (well it is) it’s just the market economy.

I mean part of me wonders why we fight it so much. Privatisation of the nhs would be a trillion times in drs favour, the pay would soar like in America and your employer gives you free private healthcare.

We fight because we are passionate for free healthcare at the point of delivery and don't want a system like America where people die or are bankrupt from ill health

I mean none of us do this job for the money, if it wasn't my absolute passion to get people through really difficult times of their life, life changing surgery and a good recovery afterwards I'd be long gone as the system treats us like nothing more than a number on a spreadsheet

Botw1 · 15/04/2023 09:33

Soontobe60 · 15/04/2023 08:04

Junior doctors get additional pay for working overtime and unsocial hours. I’m a teacher, I’ve never been paid extra for working overtime or unsociable hours.

Show quote history

Have you ever been responsible for someone living or dying?

Have you ever had to tell someone that they are dying and there is nothing you can do for them?

As a teacher you don't have to work unsociable hours

So whilst I agree with some of the arguments for saying doctors are better paid than most and will have better earning potential overall, there is a reason for that in comparison to other roles

Doctors should be better paid than most.

Singapore4 · 15/04/2023 09:34

thesmee · 15/04/2023 07:33

An F1 doctor posted their payslip on TikTok from covid to show how low it was. It was about £1900 net a month, which is my take-home pay as on something like £36,000 (have lost track). I don't disagree they're underpaid, and there is a recruitment and retention crisis so clearly something needs to be done, but I think the £14 an hour is disingenuous. They get more for unsociable hours etc. A year or two after they graduated, all my doctor friends and family were earning in 3 days what I did in 5, in another professional job. It's not anywhere near enough, but it's hardly NMW.

You need to consider how many hours a week a F1 works? How many hours an SHO works?

It's the work balance that is the worst part. The responsibility is one of the highest too it's someone's life if anything goes wrong the public would be quick to sue the doctor for their mistake.

Sendouttheclowns · 15/04/2023 09:39

For comparison -

Train drivers start at £30,000 - can earn £65,000 (plus extras for London)

Pilots - Salaries depend on the airline, the type of aircraft you're flying and your experience.

Starting salaries for newly qualified second/first officers, working for a small operation, may be around £24,000. In larger companies, starting salaries can reach £28,000.
Once you've built up your experience, salaries as a second officer tend to peak at around £58,000 while first officer salaries can reach £75,000. Once you progress on to a senior first officer role, salaries of up to £85,000 can be achieved.
The starting salary for a captain with a medium-sized airline may range from £54,000 to £75,000. Those employed by major operators can earn £97,000 to more than £140,000.

Dentists - Salaried dentists employed by the NHS, working mainly with community dental services, earn a basic salary of between £44,955 and £96,154.
In private practice this can be considerably more.

Vet £47,907 basic - can rise to £86,000. If you have a speciality, such as zoo animals or racehorses it can be even more.

Underwriter (Insurance) A trainee underwriter can start to earn anywhere between £24-30k, depending on location and the individual company. Qualified and experienced underwriters can make between £25-40k. Senior and lead underwriters can start at £40k and reach up to £90k depending on the location and type of insurance.

itsgettingweird · 15/04/2023 09:46

So in the first year of employment they are paid a minimum base of £30,000 plus overtime available?

They work 40 hour weeks.

They also have to study and write papers as part of their career progression.

And you think it's acceptable to earn a decent wage after 6 years already if uni and the debts they've accrued that they have to work overtime for more income?

sst1234 · 15/04/2023 09:47

Don’t forget that they they upto a third of their salary paid into their pension. Also the taxpayer had funded upto £200k to train them. This is not as simple as the soundbite.

This issue ultimately boils down benchmarking vs other countries. Junior doctors are not badly paid if you compare vs public sector pay or pay generally in the country. The problem is that our stagnant economy is poor that wages in this country have generally fallen behind other countries.

Nothing is going to change until we have economic growth. But we don’t like that in this country. We like the March to net 0 despite being responsible for less than 1% of global emissions. We like bashing our financial services - talk about the hand that feeds you. We like taxing the private sector to death and then wondering why they set up shop elsewhere. We like protesting against all new development and being nimbys in little Britain. We like locking ourselves up at home and printing half a trillion pound to pay for it because watching Netflix on furlough is fun, innit.

So shut up and put up. You asked for this.

itsgettingweird · 15/04/2023 09:48

But that's not her actual hourly wage, is it? That needs to cover driving between clients so all vehicle costs, petrol, time travelling etc, insurance, equipment and replacing disposable items, income when she's off sick, on holiday etc.

And junior doctors need to cover their professional body membership, exams, study material and also commute to and from their place of work.

Sendouttheclowns · 15/04/2023 09:53

@Singapore4 The responsibility is one of the highest too it's someone's life if anything goes wrong the public would be quick to sue the doctor for their mistake.

This is actually correct.

Legal action would be taken against the employer, usually the NHS. In 2021/22 only just over 54% of the clinical claims were successful in winning compensation.

Sendouttheclowns · 15/04/2023 09:55

sst1234 · 15/04/2023 09:47

Don’t forget that they they upto a third of their salary paid into their pension. Also the taxpayer had funded upto £200k to train them. This is not as simple as the soundbite.

This issue ultimately boils down benchmarking vs other countries. Junior doctors are not badly paid if you compare vs public sector pay or pay generally in the country. The problem is that our stagnant economy is poor that wages in this country have generally fallen behind other countries.

Nothing is going to change until we have economic growth. But we don’t like that in this country. We like the March to net 0 despite being responsible for less than 1% of global emissions. We like bashing our financial services - talk about the hand that feeds you. We like taxing the private sector to death and then wondering why they set up shop elsewhere. We like protesting against all new development and being nimbys in little Britain. We like locking ourselves up at home and printing half a trillion pound to pay for it because watching Netflix on furlough is fun, innit.

So shut up and put up. You asked for this.

👏👏

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 09:57

itsgettingweird · 15/04/2023 09:46

So in the first year of employment they are paid a minimum base of £30,000 plus overtime available?

They work 40 hour weeks.

They also have to study and write papers as part of their career progression.

And you think it's acceptable to earn a decent wage after 6 years already if uni and the debts they've accrued that they have to work overtime for more income?

We work 48h averaged over an 8 week rolling rota. Can be up to 62.5 during our grotty week of 2 nights, 1 day rest, 3x weekend long days

Won't complain though before the 2016 contract change we did Monday of one week to Friday of the week after (the middle fri-sun as 13h days), during which I was basically a nonfunctioning vegetable after work

Pyui · 15/04/2023 10:02

Soontobe60 · 15/04/2023 08:04

Junior doctors get additional pay for working overtime and unsocial hours. I’m a teacher, I’ve never been paid extra for working overtime or unsociable hours.

Show quote history

I’m sorry but I hate these races to the bottom. You are not routinely expected to work 9pm-9am!?

kitsuneghost · 15/04/2023 10:05

I agree the gap is getting less. Our science graduates are 50p an hour above minimum wage. Tesco currently pays more to warehouse staff.

Pyui · 15/04/2023 10:06

sst1234 · 15/04/2023 09:47

Don’t forget that they they upto a third of their salary paid into their pension. Also the taxpayer had funded upto £200k to train them. This is not as simple as the soundbite.

This issue ultimately boils down benchmarking vs other countries. Junior doctors are not badly paid if you compare vs public sector pay or pay generally in the country. The problem is that our stagnant economy is poor that wages in this country have generally fallen behind other countries.

Nothing is going to change until we have economic growth. But we don’t like that in this country. We like the March to net 0 despite being responsible for less than 1% of global emissions. We like bashing our financial services - talk about the hand that feeds you. We like taxing the private sector to death and then wondering why they set up shop elsewhere. We like protesting against all new development and being nimbys in little Britain. We like locking ourselves up at home and printing half a trillion pound to pay for it because watching Netflix on furlough is fun, innit.

So shut up and put up. You asked for this.

This ‘200k to train’ thing is really disingenuous and sparks a lot of debate.

I have been a doctor for nearly a decade and remain a junior doctor. Technically I’m ‘in training’.

My funded training is one day of online teaching I can hardly ever make it to because of clinical commitments. My job is nearly 100% service provision, and yet these figures get slung out.

Dorisbonson · 15/04/2023 10:06

Why should they expect to go into what is essentially a first job and expect mega money? It's not like they are on poverty money down the line. Haven't the government just changed pension laws because doctors were all retiring at 55 due to their mega pensions?

KnittedCardi · 15/04/2023 10:09

Healthcare, particularly hospital based nurses or doctors, has to be, by its very nature, 24/7. You can't keep having the argument that it's unfair they have to do unsocial hours. Of course they do. It's the job. People get ill and need care and treatment 24/7.

kitsuneghost · 15/04/2023 10:09

Pippa12 · 15/04/2023 08:33

My husband earns circa £50k for running a restaurant???

Quite right. Wouldn't begrudge him it. It is not an easy job

aholidaynotacarpark · 15/04/2023 10:12

Sendouttheclowns · 15/04/2023 07:36

From Full Fact -

https://fullfact.org/health/bma-junior-doctors-hourly-pay/

I usually rate Full Fact, but not in this case.

since when was annual leave used to try an claim someone's hourly rate is more than it is? I'm paid (around) £20p/h. I'm

still paid £20p/h when I'm on leave. I don't add my leave pay to my usually hourly rate but then get nothing in the holidays despite the fact I'm technically not working at those times.

additional / unsocial hours should be seen in addition to the basic hourly rate, but just added to it so it implied they earn more per hour.

Poor show, Full Fact.

Pyui · 15/04/2023 10:13

Just to say:
Im a junior doctor and have never shared these £14 an hour things as I don’t agree with it- and it’s not a fair comparison. Rather than make that stretch to say some doctors are paid the same as baristas, what we should be saying is that this country is haemorrhaging doctors at an alarming rate and there will be abysmal recruitment or retention without a pay rise.

For context I earn £44k a year in my early thirties just short of consultancy, for 30.75 hours a week average (not doing full time as have young child).
I am a ‘senior junior doctor’, and have a great deal of responsibility.
Much like teaching I suppose I don’t get to do any of my other work during the day so I do it at the evenings and weekends unpaid (admin, audit, research etc).
My department is going to be screwed later this year as our two more junior colleagues are both headed for other shores to get paid more in better conditions.

Botw1 · 15/04/2023 10:14

@KnittedCardi

Who said it was unfair they had to work unsocial hours?

It is part of the job. Its also why they are paid more for working those unsocial hours

Singapore4 · 15/04/2023 10:27

@Sendouttheclowns honestly I'm shocked that the figures are that high. I work in a hospital I'm aware of what goes on.

It's laughable that a teacher is comparing their role and people are speaking about doing unsocial hours. When you have kids and a FAMILY to look after. It's not always that EASY to be finding WEEKEND childcare and asking people to baby sit because you start work at 7am........ when was the last time posters baby sat for their mates for 13 hours and gave their weekend up?

It's a bloody joke and the night shifts once you have a family too. Get out of here 🤣

NotHangingAround · 15/04/2023 10:30

LibrariansGiveUsPower · 15/04/2023 07:44

So in the first year of employment they are paid a minimum base of £30,000 plus overtime available?

I know they work hard, train hard, but is that really such a bad starting rate? Many of us have degrees and PhDs and are only earning that after 10 years in other sectors and are providing for families. Junior doctors are on a course to earn significantly more than that.

Yes but most of us aren't dealing with saving lives, people throwing up all over us, blood, guts, 12+ hour shifts where other people's lives depend on our clarity of mind and energy, drug addicts attacking us etc. It's not comparable.

bumblebusy · 15/04/2023 10:31

I think most people who have a career remember earning less until their career kicked off.
I think that paying public sector doctors more means taxes most people can't afford. They are on a reasonable salary for the U.K., we can't have it both ways. Take away their pension and pay them more then.

x2boys · 15/04/2023 10:32

Singapore4 · 15/04/2023 10:27

@Sendouttheclowns honestly I'm shocked that the figures are that high. I work in a hospital I'm aware of what goes on.

It's laughable that a teacher is comparing their role and people are speaking about doing unsocial hours. When you have kids and a FAMILY to look after. It's not always that EASY to be finding WEEKEND childcare and asking people to baby sit because you start work at 7am........ when was the last time posters baby sat for their mates for 13 hours and gave their weekend up?

It's a bloody joke and the night shifts once you have a family too. Get out of here 🤣

Even the hospital nursery at the hospital i worked at only offered 7am -6pm monday to friday hrs for child care ,it made no sense to me when an awful lot of the people using the nursery worked ,weekends ,nights etc.

Basildeleaf · 15/04/2023 10:33

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 08:26

Not sure where you've got that from. I'm 10 years in and not on that

Show quote history

From the BBC. I was wrong when I said mid 20's from this table it would be late 20s earning circa 70k - still not bad at all. Junior doctors are still training and are able to warn a living with excellent prospects. Sorry but my sympathy lies with the carers - minimum wage, few prospects and screwed over at every turn. Junior doctors are by comparison in a very privileged position and I'd respect them a great deal more if they used that privilege to speak up for their colleagues.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/health-65211952?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6434ef7500160305532d74e8%26%262023-04-11T07%3A24%3A31.026Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:d1a29902-c648-48b5-9ad5-7170174e6365&pinned_post_asset_id=6434ef7500160305532d74e8&pinned_post_type=share

Botw1 · 15/04/2023 10:33

@bumblebusy

Don't moan about the state of the nhs or not being able to access health care when you need it.

Can't have it both ways