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Original poster

£14 an hour for a doctor ?!

161 replies

gardenlife · 15/04/2023 07:26

Junior doctor says she can't afford to start family www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-65275409

Wait hang on - the article shows the payslip and this doctor is only on £14 an hour. Having to lay in excess of £1600 for their own exams.

That's not much more than minimum wage is it? Yes she has £80k plus debt from studies.

I agree with minimum wage being increased but this is closing the gap between non professional jobs and professionals

Surely they deserve more?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
bumblebusy · 15/04/2023 10:34

@Botw1 I agree. Can't moan about an unsustainable system that's for sure.

Botw1 · 15/04/2023 10:37

@bumblebusy

If you cant afford to pay for healthcare via taxes I wonder how you can afford to pay for it via insurance, which will be much more expensive for individuals

Figmentofmyimagination · 15/04/2023 10:51

If you think you can command significantly better pay and terms and conditions as a teacher or train driver etc by relocating to a different country, go ahead and knock yourself out. There is a global market for our doctors and the government needs to wake up to that and benchmark their pay to realistic international competitors. The rest is just noise.

We have attracted doctors from other jurisdictions for years, and now, post our brexit induced decline, the boot is on the other foot, sadly for us. It’s what happens when you shoot yourself in the head as a country, metaphorically speaking.

Pyui · 15/04/2023 10:56

Basildeleaf · 15/04/2023 10:33

From the BBC. I was wrong when I said mid 20's from this table it would be late 20s earning circa 70k - still not bad at all. Junior doctors are still training and are able to warn a living with excellent prospects. Sorry but my sympathy lies with the carers - minimum wage, few prospects and screwed over at every turn. Junior doctors are by comparison in a very privileged position and I'd respect them a great deal more if they used that privilege to speak up for their colleagues.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/health-65211952?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6434ef7500160305532d74e8%26%262023-04-11T07%3A24%3A31.026Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:d1a29902-c648-48b5-9ad5-7170174e6365&pinned_post_asset_id=6434ef7500160305532d74e8&pinned_post_type=share

Show quote history

Look, I don’t think I’m going to change your mind here but to explain:

Those are pay points, not years, and where it refers to years those are training years, not calendar years. It is very common to spend a couple years out of training working in a non-training job or doing research/ university role etc. So actually I’ve got a decades experience and I’m on point 4 of that scale (and less because that is generally based on a 48 hour week and I do a 31 hour week).
The time out of training isn’t always a choice; you need to prove you have certain competencies to get certain jobs.
My friend is nearly 40 and as he is a surgeon has a long training pathway anyway, and has had many years working in non-training posts getting his skills up and clocking up operation numbers. He could do your hip for you but he isn’t the highest point on that scale yet!

The comparison to carers is disingenuous; yes I think there is a crisis and carers need to be paid more but you’re comparing a job that is highly skilled and involves years of training at personal cost to one that is done by staff who are not clinically qualified.

Singapore4 · 15/04/2023 10:57

Botw1 · 15/04/2023 10:33

@bumblebusy

Don't moan about the state of the nhs or not being able to access health care when you need it.

Can't have it both ways

Absolutely this. When you are on hold calling the GP practise for 1 hour just to get disconnected or no appointments left for the day. Do not dare complain.

birminghampicnic · 15/04/2023 10:59

Pippa12 · 15/04/2023 08:22

So it’s acceptable for these doctors to have to work weekends and nights to make ends meet?

As is said so often on here, they could get a second job or do matched betting.

Figmentofmyimagination · 15/04/2023 11:06

What happened to the £350 million on the side of the brexit bus? This would surely fund some of this pay demand?

Rainbowshit · 15/04/2023 11:35

While I do think they are underpaid they are also receiving an amazing pension and will not stay on the low rungs for long. Their earning potential will far outstrip some of the jobs their starting salary is being compared to.

FishChipsMushyPeas · 15/04/2023 11:39

There has been a few threads on here about it recently.

ajenniejonesworld · 15/04/2023 11:44

bumblebusy · 15/04/2023 10:31

I think most people who have a career remember earning less until their career kicked off.
I think that paying public sector doctors more means taxes most people can't afford. They are on a reasonable salary for the U.K., we can't have it both ways. Take away their pension and pay them more then.

What do you mean "until their career kicked off"? Are you still struggling to understand that a junior doctor is has had years of education, and that junior doctors include everyone under consultant?

BungleandGeorge · 15/04/2023 11:50

Rainbowshit · 15/04/2023 11:35

While I do think they are underpaid they are also receiving an amazing pension and will not stay on the low rungs for long. Their earning potential will far outstrip some of the jobs their starting salary is being compared to.

What is so amazing about the pension?

I think medics pay below consultant level is genuinely quite shockingly low, they’re not on 70k after 3/4 years! And any pay for overtime/ unsocial hours is dependent on working unsocially and shouldn’t be taken into account. Most people could earn more by taking more/ less convenient hours!

Hbh17 · 15/04/2023 11:55

This is not new, because a junior doctor is in a training grade. So they are getting massive amounts of free training and experience, which will enable them to move on to a well-paid consultancy or GP role in later life. Not to mention generous pension provision.
My OH earned less per hour than a porter when he was a houseman. It was annoying, but he knew that it was a means to an end. He also knew that he would have to pay big sums for exam costs, courses etc. It is all about investment in the future, and I don't understand how junior doctors now fail to understand this. They work hard but are also are very fortunate people.

KnittedCardi · 15/04/2023 12:12

Botw1 · 15/04/2023 10:14

@KnittedCardi

Who said it was unfair they had to work unsocial hours?

It is part of the job. Its also why they are paid more for working those unsocial hours

PP's. And that's the point. They are complaining of low pay and then having to work o/t. But they get paid enhanced rates for o/t. It's the usual cyclical argument.

And it is just not a bill for the expected 35% on standard salary. Then o/t rate cards will increase, as they have with consultants, and the extra value % on pensions. It's a big bill to cover. All the extra billions being pumped into healthcare will just disappear into existing salaries, no extra staff, no extra treatments. Just the status quo, unless everyone, and I mean even medium and low paid workers put more into the tax pot.

Lincslady53 · 15/04/2023 12:20

And yet we are told doctors are retiring early as they have paid the maximum into their pension funds. There is a lot of malicious spin being spouted at the moment.

00deed1988 · 15/04/2023 12:20

I am mid band 6 on NHS May scale and even though my payslip says I get £18.19 an hour. Last month, by the time my unsociable hours pay and outer London weighting is added it averages out at £26.15 an hour (although I do a lot of nights so varies from person to person) Bank shifts are even more for nights and weekends. Because of my unsociable hours I earn more than my bank 7 manager.

It isn't quite black and white. I'm not saying they don't deserve more. But not clear cut with the figures!

Sodthebloodypicnic · 15/04/2023 12:21

Hbh17 · 15/04/2023 11:55

This is not new, because a junior doctor is in a training grade. So they are getting massive amounts of free training and experience, which will enable them to move on to a well-paid consultancy or GP role in later life. Not to mention generous pension provision.
My OH earned less per hour than a porter when he was a houseman. It was annoying, but he knew that it was a means to an end. He also knew that he would have to pay big sums for exam costs, courses etc. It is all about investment in the future, and I don't understand how junior doctors now fail to understand this. They work hard but are also are very fortunate people.

I'd like to see this massive amount of free training and experience Foundation trainees are getting? What do you think this is? As far as I can see we are service provision and our consultants prefer to train permanent staff but excited to hear your point of view

The houseman experience your OH had is a thing of the past.
Pay was better compared to the cost of living and cost of housing.
Housemen had free accommodation in their first year.
There were no student loans, let alone nearly 100k.
Pension schemes were amazing value compared to what have now.
Choice of where to train? None of the costs of having to move/commute across country every year.

If you can't recognise what a different situation FY1s are in now you need to give your head a wobble.

All of these changes happened during the working life of current seniors who watched it happen.

We very much understand the 'investing in the future' argument. Just a shame the best investment in my future is the USMLE licensing exams for the states or a flight ticket to Aus - unless we see pay restoration.

Ariela · 15/04/2023 12:26

LibrariansGiveUsPower · 15/04/2023 07:44

So in the first year of employment they are paid a minimum base of £30,000 plus overtime available?

I know they work hard, train hard, but is that really such a bad starting rate? Many of us have degrees and PhDs and are only earning that after 10 years in other sectors and are providing for families. Junior doctors are on a course to earn significantly more than that.

And they get a good pension.

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 12:30

KnittedCardi · 15/04/2023 12:12

PP's. And that's the point. They are complaining of low pay and then having to work o/t. But they get paid enhanced rates for o/t. It's the usual cyclical argument.

And it is just not a bill for the expected 35% on standard salary. Then o/t rate cards will increase, as they have with consultants, and the extra value % on pensions. It's a big bill to cover. All the extra billions being pumped into healthcare will just disappear into existing salaries, no extra staff, no extra treatments. Just the status quo, unless everyone, and I mean even medium and low paid workers put more into the tax pot.

Show quote history

You don't really get how our hours work.

Working nights evenings weekends is not overtime it's mandatory and part of our standard salary.

Locum shifts are additional work that we do ontop of our 48-62h weeks on days off, the only reason these shifts exist are because we are haemorrhaging drs abroad and into non medical jobs like pharmaceuticals ... funnily enough you can't just leave an emergency theatre or obstetric shift uncovered else people will die. If these are rota vacancies then they have to be filled. Locum pay has to be better than our normal rate else noone would give up their days off to do it (they're not exactly popular given I get about 10 requests most days). You see in London where they have pit caps on rates only 10ish £ above normal day rate they are constantly begging and begging for cover as funnily enough the little free time we have is deemed worth more than that to us

Our out of hours/nights oncall pay is not pensionable so that has zero to do with anything. Our pension is based on 40h day time pay and that's it

The pay restoration has nothing to do with locum pay to cover vacant shifts

If you don't sort the current crisis you won't keep these staff let alone buy additional staff from God knows where, as all my European Dr mates have had enough and are off

Weedoormatnomore · 15/04/2023 12:39

When questioned on TV they admitted it was only between 7 and 10 percent that are on £14 an hour. I presume they are training in their first years like any other professional so reduced pay at start that increases. There was a post on here for someone else but 2 years old. Reading her post it mentioned her take home pay had increased by about 30 percent now but she would not show the newer payslip or mention her new hourly wage. No idea who could start a career do one or two years of work and then take time of to have a family !

SadandFed · 15/04/2023 12:41

Destiny123 · 15/04/2023 09:19

Sorry don't understand your point? We are still trainees

The government just likes to keep the trainee title as it infantalises us and makes the public associate us with being medical students not fully qualified professionals

Show quote history

Are you one of the trainee Dr's claiming you're working for £14 an hour in F1?

You're not so I'm not sure what your point is?

The BMA put out a marketing piece about how junior Dr's only earn £14 an hour which was less than a barista Which had a lot of backlash even from BMA members about how it was not equitable in any way.

That is the point of this post.

The idea that ALL junior Dr's as in non-consultants only earn £14 an hour. When that only applies to F1 Drs in the foundation programme.

You're not earning that are you?

If you're not a consultant but a Dr who has passed the foundation years then you should be in your chosen field and earning 50 to 80k a year basic as a speciality Dr.

As a speciality grade Dr you can earn
80k to 100k.

As a consultant it will rise over 100k a year. Which is wh6

ajenniejonesworld · 15/04/2023 12:59

Lincslady53 · 15/04/2023 12:20

And yet we are told doctors are retiring early as they have paid the maximum into their pension funds. There is a lot of malicious spin being spouted at the moment.

This is happening. Because they ended up with huge tax bills due to pension contributions that they had no way of stopping other than reducing their hours or giving up work.

ladykale · 15/04/2023 13:01

thesmee · 15/04/2023 07:33

An F1 doctor posted their payslip on TikTok from covid to show how low it was. It was about £1900 net a month, which is my take-home pay as on something like £36,000 (have lost track). I don't disagree they're underpaid, and there is a recruitment and retention crisis so clearly something needs to be done, but I think the £14 an hour is disingenuous. They get more for unsociable hours etc. A year or two after they graduated, all my doctor friends and family were earning in 3 days what I did in 5, in another professional job. It's not anywhere near enough, but it's hardly NMW.

But it's ridiculous that we are even sitting here comparing them with NMW or someone doing a random job when they are typically much cleverer, have to have the best academics and have to study much longer. Their wage should be compared with other jobs you can get with those sort of grades and study etc.

WeAreBorg · 15/04/2023 13:03

I fully support the junior docs…however that lass who’s complaining because she’s done two degrees and has only just started regular employment at the age of 31…c’mon love
I do worry that they’re starting to undermine their cause by focusing on rubbish like this

ladykale · 15/04/2023 13:04

@Soontobe60 but if you are a teacher then you don't work particular unsociable hours...

Your "overtime" is what many professional works and you don't work chunks of school holidays presumably??