Why is there so much sneering at Americans with European ancestry?

[BrBa]

I don’t understand! I identify with all my ancestors whether they came as religious refugees or early colonisers, were already indigenous to the region or brought in as slaves.

Yours
Swiss, German, Native American North, Central and South, Sephardic, Irish, South East African, Scottish, Acadian/French, and English

In a sense, yes, because they had a different cultural perspective - the proximity of Scotland to Ulster is an important factor in this. And they took this to the New World. The stereotype, and it IS a stereotype, is that Protestants were industrious, practical whilst the Catholics were creative storytellers. That was the mindset for a long time despite the fact those roles could be reversed. Hence, different identity markers such as Scots-Irish and Catholic Irish.

Even so, migration between Ulster and Scotland had clearly been occurring for centuries before any Scots-Irish identity label.

Before the United States, Ulster itself was a melting pot and long before the Plantation too. To modern eyes, the seas are a "natural barrier", but for most of human history they were viewed as connectors between places. We can still see this today in the UK, Portugal & Madiera and even in the United States - the sea connects territories and people.

Identity has never been fixed. Modern identities is not really what our ancestors would have understood themselves through. Identification with tribe was far more the norm.

Quality posts, @DownNative. Thank you for making the effort.

Yes I agree, really informative!

Who are the 'etc'? Who exactly are 'English' people in your mind as you obviously have some very set ideas about who qualifies to be the evil English! I am married to a Jewish Man with an Irish surname and my DC have the very Irish sounding surname, we all make up the intolerant 'English' you speak of!

That is not really it though.

The British and French did most of the genocide of the Natives.

The land was populated by (mainly) Europeans fleeing unreast, famine, religious intolerence etc in Europe. They were turbulent times.

There was a war of Independance against Britan. but that was inly the 13 colonies. The rest belonged to France, California was Mexican and Texas was ?? I cannot remember.

After the War if Independance there were 13 seperate colonies, with different political and religious beliefs ready and willing to go to war against each other. For example New Jersey and New York had cannons trained on each over the river.

Some wise poeple saw a potiential Europe and decided to try and unify.

It took ages.

But at the tine of the war of Independance there really was not a United States. Not by a long short. Most were still loyal to overseas Kings or religious faiths.

America as it is now took a few hundred years.

I think!

As a previous poster said, “Scots-Irish” settlers were heavily involved in taming the frontier. Their stereo type in the US is too be a bit rough and tumble. Our gun culture traces back to their macho, never back-down, brass necked self reliance.
Despite three hundred years of separation you can look at the DUP and look at a red-state Republican and see some commonalities, even without squinting too hard.
There is about 200 years separating the waves of Scots-Irish immigration and Irish Catholic immigration to America. Despite being from the same island, they are quite different culturally, at least in America. The Catholic/Protestant line is an easy one to draw, but the differences feel more cultural than religious.

A bit off topic, but you certainly can't lump American Catholics together. Irish vs Italian vs German are all distinct in outlook. I can remember my Irish Catholic Aunt complaining about my Austrian Catholic Grandmother's ways, commenting thay she was typical St Luis Catholic. (St Luis being known for its large German population.)

It's a minefield. In multicultural societies, it only works, when we give everyone the benefit of the doubt and interpret their words and actions in the most generous way possible. It's too easy to be offended, and too tempting to seek to be offended as a means for bolstering one's own identity against the foil of a supposed oppressor.

Think of in regional terms.

So - Americans will say Irish American, Italian American etc.

In England we would say Northerner, Scouse, etc.

Andf if you are not from there but grandmother was you may have a glow about it.

That would be a better frame for the conversation.

@Mamaneedsadrink Slightly off-topic, but I was really surprised to learn from some neighbors that India doesn’t allow dual citizenship so if they want to apply for American citizenship, they would have to surrender their Indian passports! The reverse is true for their American-born children.

So I’m guessing that Rishi Sunak’s parents may no longer have Indian citizenship, which is rather sad if they had to make that hard choice.

@Goldenbear actually all the English people I know irl are lovely and I have some great friends from England.

My comment says SOME people from England are confused by this. I am hopeful that this is a very small minority of people.

I hope this clears it up for you.

The Irish American vote not as significant now in the States.

Hispanic and Asian are where it is at! 😄

That doesn't work because the Americans are referring to national identifiers of countries outwith the United States.

In the UK, we have regional identifiers as well, but this is not equivalent to the Irish-American example.

This example would be closer - English/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish and British.

Even then, we're simply mixing a regional identity (English/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish) with a national one (British).

The Americans aren't doing this.

I agree. It's certainly bringing out that air of superiority and British doing what they've always done, telling other people how they should think and feel. They've been doing that forever ... going into other countries and imposing their views ... why would they stop now. This thread has been quite disturbing to read, although I suppose it's not really very surprising

The United States of America is 247 years old this year!

So, it didn't take a few hundred years for the US to become what it is now. The US pretty much took the form we know it today before the 20th Century even dawned!

You are correct of course.

But in the US they are more like our regional markers than a national ident.

Everyone there is "from" somewhere. It is entirely normal to say where.

I really think the press are playing this like we are the jilted.

Much as we love to be snooty about Americans we purr very loudly when our Special Relationship outs us on the world stage, jump for joy when we win an Oscar, feel chosen when a US president comes to visit or makes a phone call.

We have been jilted - and we DON"T LIKE IT!

@GarlicGrace and @Goldenbear thank you and you're both welcome!

My views and knowledge has been shaped by decades of conflict, debate, argument and reading in Northern Ireland. I always hope people come away understanding that little bit more about Northern Ireland's people.

Absolutely, I've learnt more from you than I ever did on the topic on Irish History on my 'A' level history course in the mid 90s! You sound very knowledgeable DownNative.

Obviously not just from the history books but living in that context.

Ah, the US President is making a state visit to the UK in June.

Personally, I think Biden wrongly put pressure on the UK ahead of the Belfast Agreement 25th Anniversary. Biden clearly wanted to be in Belfast to "celebrate" It to some extent which is bizarre. It's not something to celebrate for this reason:

"The greatest injustice in the north of Ireland today is acts committed by paramilitary organisations like the IRA. The taking of human life is the greatest injustice.

Other injustices can be corrected. People can come out of prison, but people cannot come out of their graves."

• John Hume

Northern Ireland doesn't celebrate that kind of thing. Oh, the politicians like to use it as a backslapping exercise. I find it distasteful because it's the victims of Republican and Loyalist terrorists who've missed out the most. One mention in a small paragraph in the Agreement and vital evidence destroyed which means zero chance of conviction of terrorists. So, justice denied to them which leads to a victim hierarchy.

Biden though shows he doesn't understand Northern Ireland or how delicate our structure is. Nobody really was enthusiastic, waiting for him to make a major gaffe and large crowds didn't turn out. A non-event. Biden is too partisan which isn't good optics for a US President when it comes to Northern Ireland.

But there should have been no hoopla over the 25th anniversary of the Belfast Agreement. Its not an appropriate thing to do for something like that. No-one celebrated in 1998 or the years after in NI. Its weird to do, really.

I don't see it as a jilt for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Its more like a non-event than anything else. Certainly not close to Clinton's visit in 1995.

I've quite a library of books on Northern Ireland. Most I've read, some I haven't. The quotes I've used from Liam Kennedy is from his book, "Unhappy The Land: The Most Oppressed People Ever, The Irish?".

You might like that - academic, really, but very informative on different aspects. There's a section on Irish-Americans. Deals also with Unionist and Republican ideology - for example, the Ulster Covenant and Irish Proclamation texts are considered as examples of texting terror. Interesting stuff!

I'm always buying* *books, underlining most of them, looking for more information and then writing about them to be passed on to my future descendants so they understand the perspective of my Catholic Unionist family. Now, there's a little understood group!

In the case of Italy, though, anyone with an Italian parent is automatically considered to be Italian, under the jus sanguinis rule. My DS, despite having been born in the UK, is Italian in the eyes of the authorities there (I got severely told off at passport control once for not having obtained his Italian ID card; since remedied). Having an Italian grandparent, or even a relative even further back, gives one the right to obtain Italian citizenship easily. Hence why so many Americans of Italian heritage call themselves Italian Americans and actually are, because many of them obtain Italian citizenship.

If you have an Italian grandparent, you aren't 1/4 Italian either. You just have an Italian relative

Erm @Curseofthenation do you know how genetics and maths work?? I hope this makes it to the Daily Mail and this is quoted so the government starts to take education a little more seriously 🤣

bloody hell -

"thanks for being patient with us".

Get off your knees...

Well, the Dutch West India company established the New Netherland Colony in 1624.

It was present day New York , New Jersey, Connecticut and parts of Long Island. The British took it over in 1664.

Listen, I am not trying to shout anything down but I am saying that the America we know today, the United States, with home rule and a federal government took quite a while from the first European arrivals.

It's funny that they're never from Wales.