Why is there so much sneering at Americans with European ancestry?

[BrBa]

I don’t understand! I identify with all my ancestors whether they came as religious refugees or early colonisers, were already indigenous to the region or brought in as slaves.

Yours
Swiss, German, Native American North, Central and South, Sephardic, Irish, South East African, Scottish, Acadian/French, and English

Let me take a wild guess and assume you're not Indian ... Actually Indians celebrated Rishi becoming Prime Minister all over the world, you may or may not be aware but the term "Indian" is very broad, different languages, religions etc. Yet they came together to celebrate the achievement of "one of their own". Think about that for a moment, it's actually quite special. If that makes you angry then you should probably think about why that is.

The English don't have a history to be proud of, I think you'll find that is the British and we weren't the only ones that colonised countries. I think stereotypes are abound on this thread as the make up of British people is really diverse and yet people don't want to hear that. Equally, unfortunately, racism is alive and kicking in all countries unfortunately very much including Ireland especially in comparison to their European counterparts. As was said before no one is particularly sneering, it is more bewilderment.

It must be you who is 'angry' as you seem to have completely misunderstood my post.

This thread reinforces the English stereotype - You think this is only English?!

I promise you, the rest of the world doesn't go around declaring their nationality based on a selected sample of their forebears.

The only other times something similar happens, is where a nationality has been forcibly subsumed by an aggressor and they're trying hard to hold on to their cultural (and, usually, religious) identity. It's notable that these groups don't cherry-pick from mixed ancestry; they marry in-group and deplore signs of watering down.

not much has changed from colonial times - When you're the ones telling Italians that Italian doesn't necessarily mean from Italy, you might want a little rethink about who's behaving like a colonist.

they don't have a history to be proud of - 🤣🤣🤣 for fuck's sake!

Well I've lived most of my life in Ireland, and I don't recall meeting anyone who struggles to understand what a third-, fourth-, fifth- generation Irish American means when they call themselves Irish. The Irish President, the Oireachtas, the various celebrities and crowds meeting Biden all seem to be coping fine.

I too have travelled widely. You learn that people are different and use concepts differently. French views of nationality are different from British, Irish, American. In every culture you'll have people who can't make that leap to realising concepts aren't fixed and stable. But mostly, mingling, listening and reflecting sort that out.

I think I understood it pretty well ... Imagine Rishi Sunak going on about how 'Indian' or maybe 'Kenyan' he feels.

I'm guessing even though I'm a third generation Kiwi with Indian ethnicity you'd sneer at me for feeling "Indian" too if I went back to India? So yeah that does make me feel quite angry actually. Just like another thread on here saying that someone isn't Pakistani because they werent born there. I can't believe so many of the batshit comments on here, some people should really feel embarrassed for themselves.

Well I've lived most of my life in Ireland, and I don't recall meeting anyone who struggles to understand what a third-, fourth-, fifth- generation Irish American means when they call themselves Irish. The Irish President, the Oireachtas, the various celebrities and crowds meeting Biden all seem to be coping fine.

They're hardly going to roll their eyes at him, are they? Though no doubt many will when the cameras aren't rolling.

No, you didn't understand my post at all and are getting angry on the basis of something I never said.

My point was that it's strange to me how an American president would go out of his way to emphasise his 'Irishness' even though his ancestry is very distant, and mixed with other nationalities. Whereas a British PM of recent Indian heritage would be very unlikely to do anything similar. Just like the several Australian PM's of recent British heritage do not emphasise their 'Britishness', to give another example. It seems like one of those things which is peculiar to America and Americans.

That was my point. But if you're determined to be offended there's not much I can do.

Whatever any of them may think of Biden, they know what he's talking about. They echo his language themselves. His conception of Irishness is well understood. Diaspora is taken pretty seriously in Irish politics.

The United States is a country built upon immigration, sure, but that doesn’t automatically mean all of that was due to painful or difficult circumstances.

Take the Irish-American story there. The first to leave the island of Ireland were mainly Protestants from Ulster in search of better lives, especially economically motivated so jobs/new industry. These people mainly settled where agriculture could be done in the United States. They helped set the basis for the United States, were involved in the Declaration Of Independence and more US Presidents come from this group than any other. An example of that is James Buchannan who was Democratic state Assembly man, US Congress member, US minister to Russia, Secretary of State, minister to Britain and President.

Buchanan once said: “My Ulster blood is my most priceless heritage” and there is a mural in Belfast dedicated to him. It's a Loyalist/Protestant mural.

There's another mural dedicated to President George Washington in relation to these Ulster Protestants. Washington spoke of these Protestants in glowing terms: "When our friendless standards were first unfurled, who were the strangers who first mustered around our staff, and when it reeled in the fight who more brilliantly sustained it than Erin's generous sons".

The mural dedicated to him carries a quote attributed to him: "....“If defeated everywhere else, I will make my stand for liberty, among the Scots-Irish in my native Virginia."

The Catholic Irish came later to the United States and mainly settled in urban cities - Boston and New York, famously.

Yet Irish-Americans and non-Americans often think in terms of the Catholic Irish in relation to the United States. Even though most Irish-Americans are descended NOT from Catholics, but from the Protestants. And most of them not only misunderstand their own ancestry, but misunderstand the Protestants of Northern Ireland. The Irish Times article I posted a page or two back shows they "thought the Protestants were devils".

America's Irish Protestants are known as the invisible Irish and this is largely due to the idea that to be Irish you had to be Catholic. A dangerous equation.

https://religionnews.com/2014/03/17/irish-americans-religion-politics/

Likewise, it was dangerous equating Catholicism with Nationalism/Republicanism. See, these ideas were rooted in bigotry which the late John Hume recognised:

"Catholics of all shades of political thought are expected to band together under the unconstructive banner of Nationalism. This dangerous equation of Nationalism and Catholicism has simply contributed to the postponement of the emergence of normal politics in the area..."

My point is that in the United States there has built up a mythology of what Irishness is, especially basing it on Catholicism. And that Americans tend to believe anyone who left the island of Ireland for the United States did so due to the Famine, for example. The "coffin ships" is another recurring story which Irish-America has told over and over again, but this gives the impression this was normal for the people of the time. Historians have cast doubt on this aspect of the Transatlantic migration and noted that the stories of other Irish migrations have been ignored in popular culture - i.e., those to Great Britain and Australia as well as New Zealand. Details of a book dealing with this aspect of history can be found here:

https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/others/irish-famine-coffin-ships

Joe Biden himself comes from this Irish-American background that's rooted in Catholicism. He even referred to the aforementioned "coffin ships" which historians have cast doubt on. Biden clearly ascribes to the problematic concept that to be Irish you had to be Catholic. This goes some way to explaining his comfortable relationship with Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA. It explains his clear discomfort at being in Northern Ireland - contrast that with how he behaved in the Republic of Ireland which is still largely Catholic, albeit less than in the past.

Irish historian, Liam Kennedy (from Tipperary, ROI) and Emeritus Professor Of Economic History at Queen's University of Belfast reminds us that:

"The stridently nationalistic manifestations of 'Irishness' in recent decades belong in the main to the Catholic Irish of America rather than to Irish-Americans generally, and even then only to a minority within that subset of the Irish Diaspora....a majority of the descendants of Irish immigrants to the USA were of Protestant origin and cannot be assumed to share the same sentiments and world view. Of those of Catholic Irish descent, most are not militant Irish Nationalists and some had crossed over to other faiths or none."

The long and short of it is that the stories Irish-Americans tell themselves each generation of the island of Ireland is "a melange of partial truths, selective recollection and special pleading". Especially Catholic Irish of America.

All of which we can observe in Joe Biden's behaviour, especially this week. Unlike Bill Clinton in the 1990s, Biden cannot credibly act as a mediator in relationships between Northern Ireland's divided people, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland as well as between Great Britain and the Republic.

To end, the poster above seems pretty confused, especially in their last paragraph. For one thing, the United Kingdom definitely did NOT have a "civil war" "ten years ago"!

For another, what we had in Northern Ireland was NOT a civil war. It was a criminal terrorist campaign of murder, intimidation, punishment beatings. My family and I lived through it - our experience of the Troubles does not match that from actual war zones such as WW2, Gulf War and so on. It's ignorance and/or gaslighting to suggest otherwise. A quick look at the statistics is instructive - fewer than 4,000 people died during the Troubles.

In over a year in Ukraine, the Russian instigated war has claimed the lives of over 100,000 people. And it will claim many more this year.

The conditions could not be more stark! Of course, it suits Republican and Loyalist terrorists to claim it was a war. But we could largely go about our normal lives - people went to work and school as normal.

Normal life of any description is not possible in Ukraine.

And what truly paved the way towards the Belfast Agreement was the defeat of the Provisional I.R.A and Provisional Sinn Féin. A story largely ignored, especially as the UK Government wanted to offer a "golden bridge" to them.

The takeaway from this is that the stories of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland along with Great Britain is far more complex than many will acknowledge.

Definitely bears very little relation to the ideas too many Irish-Americans hold to this day.

How bizarre is it that Biden's mother refused to sleep in a bed Queen Elizabeth II once slept in?!

People in modern day Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland simply do not think like this.....

Even though most Irish-Americans are descended NOT from Catholics, but from the Protestants.

Didn't many of these identify as Scottish or Ulster Scot rather than Irish?

people are different and use concepts differently

OK. I have one Welsh grandfather, who moved to England as a teen.
Welsh people would not be tolerant of my declaring myself Welsh.

Another of my grandparents was full Romany.
I ain't a gypsy, as any Romany traveller could tell in under 30 seconds.

I had a Scottish great-grandmother.
Scots would correct me in short order if I said I was Scottish.

The Scottish great-grandmother had a French parent.
Any French person would give me the "are you okay?" look if I told them I was French.

I'd suggest that "people use concepts differently" means "Americans have decided to use the concept of nationality in a different way from everyone else".

And that the actual natives of the identities you have hijacked appear understanding & welcoming to you because your actual nationality - American - represents the world's richest & most powerful entity. People are wary of crossing you, especially your President.

My point is I'm sure most Indians wouldn't give a flying fuck if Rishi went to India and said that, in fact they'd be quite happy and probably feel quite proud about it. Even if you think it's strange.

Not really. Concepts of nationality vary across time and place. It's not just America vs the rest.

Sure, they'll pander to him and other influential 'Irish' Americans as it's good business.

But Irish people themselves certainly do not refer to people whose great grandparents left a country as being 'from' that country. That is a uniquely American thing.

In this instance, I really think it is.

Do you know of any other country where people would refer to someone with very distant ancestry as being 'Irish' or 'Italian' or whatever? Not hyphenated Irish or Italian, just plain Irish or Italian? That doesn't happen even in the other 'new world' countries.

Irish people understand the concept as Irish Americans use it about themselves - not least because many have relatives in Biden's position. So it's not just the influential Irish-Americans, though obviously you'd make a fuss of a President. Lots of ordinary Irish Americans come home (as they would often put it) to reconnect too.

Yes, this usage may be specific to America (and to those in dialogue with Americans, especially amongst their diaspora).

But concepts of nationality vary from place to place. There's no one standard.

The stereotyping of the English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish in your post is breathtaking in its irony/ignorance!

And I note you didn't even mention the Northern Irish!

Fact is, all these groups are very, very similar to each other. There's a reason we can all move throughout the Common Travel Area without any bother! They all have very much the same plus and minus points, you know!

Those not from our part may not fully appreciate or understand it. But, crucially, we do!

No, Scots-Irish is what they called themselves in the US, but only from the time Catholic Irish emigration began. Before that, they referred to themselves as Irish though not in the same vein as the Catholics did.

Ulster-Scot is a much, much later term which is beginning to be replaced by Ulster-British.

Interesting. So the 'Scots Irish' term was used as a way to distinguish themselves from Catholic Irish immigrants?

Used to be Scots-Irish in the Appalachian region. But I think Ulster Scots is the preferred term now. Lots of those wild west frontiers men we grew up reading about were of Ulster Scots origin. Like Davy Crockett , Kit Carson and Jim Bowie.

Years ago

This thread is so sad, the lack of tolerance of other cultures is astonishing.
In America, people will often say "I am Irish, I am Italian, I am Polish", whatever, as a way of identifying themselves. They are speaking about how they have been brought up. It means they have been brought up with Irish, Polish, Italian culture. I do not know why people cannot understand this? They know they are American, everybody knows that they are American.

To say that someone should dismiss the culture and identity which they have been brought up with because it confuses some people in England is absoutley ridiculous.
Americans, Irish etc clearly understand what it means. We are not offended by it.

Years ago me and an ex were in Amsterdam for the weekend, we made friends with 2 Americans, they dec