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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why is there so much sneering at Americans with European ancestry?

863 replies

BrBa · 14/04/2023 15:47

I don’t understand! I identify with all my ancestors whether they came as religious refugees or early colonisers, were already indigenous to the region or brought in as slaves.

Yours
Swiss, German, Native American North, Central and South, Sephardic, Irish, South East African, Scottish, Acadian/French, and English

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DownNative · 20/04/2023 18:10

Dishwasherdisaster · 20/04/2023 15:38

The two aren't the same as per above. Personal identity is informal and nationality is formal. Hence, legislation does not use nationality and citizenship interchangeably.

There's no hence. Identity is not the same as citizenship. Citizenship is formal. You quoted the Agreement as saying
"...accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments"

Does the word 'both' lead to a bit of ambiguity? As in, could it be taken to mean you can't have Irish citizenship without British citizenship (or at least British first)? As seems to be the case now.

But then that would mean you couldn't have British citizenship without Irish either and that's not the case at all.

With respect, you're doing the same thing Emma DeSouza did in the case she lost - arguing the Agreement says what it doesn't and not taking note of what the law states.

Cambridge University published a paper in 2022 which stated the following:

"The British Nationality Act 1981 ensures that anyone born in Northern Ireland to a parent who is settled or is a British citizen automatically becomes a British citizen. It was not altered in light of the 1998 Agreement. The people of Northern Ireland can thus identify as Irish and can assert their entitlement to Irish citizenship, but if they do, they will be treated in domestic law as dual citizens unless they also take steps to renounce British citizenship."

And:

"Because the people of Northern Ireland were automatically presumed to be British citizens, this change meant that they could no longer circumvent minimum income requirements for securing the residency of family members by asserting their Irish citizenship, unless they also renounced their British citizenship."

The Upper Tribunal concluded in DeSouza's case that the Agreement "does not, in fact, involve giving the concept of self-identification the meaning for which the claimant argues".

In other words, if the Belfast Agreement was referring to nationality as DeSouza essentially argued it would have stated so explicitly. But it does not.

The part of the Belfast Agreement I quoted must be considered in its entirety and not in part.

Indeed, the case of Irish national, Lisa Smith, directly contradicts Emma DeSouza's since Smith was essentially arguing she cannot be excluded from British nationality given her parent was born in Belfast! She argued she should be automatically considered to be a dual British and Irish national. Even though she argued she was Irish and had no intention of acquiring British Nationality leading Judge Underhill to say:

"...it does not seem to me disproportionate to treat her in accordance with her chosen status as a foreign national,” Lord Justice Underhill said, adding that it would be “extraordinary” for her to have the right to freely enter the UK as a British citizen without being willing to acquire that status.
“Ms Smith cannot have it both ways. If she wishes to be treated as a British citizen she must accept the obligations that go with that status, including allegiance to the Crown, which is owed by those who are British from birth just as much as by those who acquire nationality subsequently."

Smith’s lawyer argued that this infringes on her rights as per the Belfast Agreement. But Cambridge noted that "The (Special Immigration) Commission nonetheless maintained that the obligation on someone claiming to have entitlement to British citizenship to take an oath and pledge of allegiance ‘is not inconsistent with the rights of those who wish to identify as Irish’ under the 1998 Agreement."

Theyfurther stated that "Smith’s eagerness to assert dual nationality to prevent exclusion highlights how different claimants are drawing upon very different accounts of how nationality law works in the context of Northern Ireland."

The constructive ambiguity of the Belfast Agreement meets the realities of law - on this issue, domestic.

It demonstrates how identity is often contentious and how people bind it up in a manner that suits themselves. For DeSouza, the Belfast Agreement means the UK Government has no right to automatically designate her a British citizen. For Smith, the UK Government should automatically consider her a British national with dual nationality.

Both invoked the Belfast Agreement, but both cannot be equally true. Both women lost their cases against the UK Government.

In conclusion, there is a hence. The Agreement speaks to identity, not nationality, and both Governments agree not to prohibit their respective citizens from acquiring a British, Irish or both sets of passports.

Dishwasherdisaster · 21/04/2023 00:48

I checked and am guessing the 2022 paper you mention is that by CRG Murray, but you're only quoting parts of his opinion.

The decision on the DeSouza case was being appealed when the situation was 'defused' by the UK government who changed the immigration rules for a set period, and so made it unneccessary for Emma DeDouza to renounce British citizenship (something she was not willing to do as she didn't consider herself British in the first place). The appeal was then withdrawn.

Murray also says that " the UK government ..is of the firm view that UK nationality law is consistent with its obligations under the Belfast Agreement obligation and the ECHR."
This agrees with what you say @DownNative.
However, he goes on to say that
" This conclusion is, at least, questionable, given than the cost for persons of NI of £372 to remove their underlying British citizenship constricts their ability to make and 'be accepted' in their citizenship choices."

I'm not a lawyer. I haven't a hope of explaining how exactly each word in a legal document should be properly interpreted.
But I can say that the above does not seem fair to me.
It's clear too that some lawyers agree. The outcome of the DeSouza appeal would have been interesting.

Whalesong · 22/04/2023 02:44

DownNative · 20/04/2023 08:35

Emma DeSouza lost her case that you're talking about above. The Home Office still did what she wanted in order to formally end the case.

https://extra.ie/2019/10/14/news/irish-news/emma-desouza-loses-appeal-home-office

And dropped her appeal too:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-52755553

The people of Northern Ireland are all still officially regarded as British until/unless they formally renounce their British citizenship through official channels.

But this is a very different situation from that which people informally identify themselves. This is identity, essentially. And identity is what the Belfast Agreement deals with - not nationality.

But postapesto is still wrong because such individuals view themselves as Irish, especially in a cultural sense.

Thank you for this. I had no idea that the original judgement was overturned.
This is appalling, as not only does it go against the GFA, but it goes against the agreement of Irish Independence in 1921.
But I agree with you in essentials.

DownNative · 22/04/2023 07:33

Whalesong · 22/04/2023 02:44

Thank you for this. I had no idea that the original judgement was overturned.
This is appalling, as not only does it go against the GFA, but it goes against the agreement of Irish Independence in 1921.
But I agree with you in essentials.

The Belfast Agreement itself has already been covered, but which provisions of the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty are you referring to?

Meaning the actual legal text.

DownNative · 22/04/2023 07:51

Dishwasherdisaster · 21/04/2023 00:48

I checked and am guessing the 2022 paper you mention is that by CRG Murray, but you're only quoting parts of his opinion.

The decision on the DeSouza case was being appealed when the situation was 'defused' by the UK government who changed the immigration rules for a set period, and so made it unneccessary for Emma DeDouza to renounce British citizenship (something she was not willing to do as she didn't consider herself British in the first place). The appeal was then withdrawn.

Murray also says that " the UK government ..is of the firm view that UK nationality law is consistent with its obligations under the Belfast Agreement obligation and the ECHR."
This agrees with what you say @DownNative.
However, he goes on to say that
" This conclusion is, at least, questionable, given than the cost for persons of NI of £372 to remove their underlying British citizenship constricts their ability to make and 'be accepted' in their citizenship choices."

I'm not a lawyer. I haven't a hope of explaining how exactly each word in a legal document should be properly interpreted.
But I can say that the above does not seem fair to me.
It's clear too that some lawyers agree. The outcome of the DeSouza appeal would have been interesting.

Yes, I was using that which is directly relevant to the discussion. Most of that paper was discussing the issue of EU rights for those NI citizens who want them.

Emma DeSouza is one of a handful of people who benefited from the minor change to the NDNA document.

Yes, the "the UK government ..is of the firm view that UK nationality law is consistent with its obligations under the Belfast Agreement obligation and the ECHR." Meaning they believe it is not in contravention and that meant no amendments were necessary to the British Nationality Act 1981.

While the UK Government requires a fee to be paid for renouncing British nationality, this still means the option is there. In short, its a political issue and NOT a legal issue. Therefore, the Government is correct in saying "UK nationality law is consistent with its obligations under the Belfast Agreement obligation and the ECHR."

Constructive ambiguity will always crash on the shore of law, international and domestic. Law itself fares best when it's not ambiguous. Various politicians make lots of pronouncements about the Belfast Agreement which is simply incorrect, but these are clearly intended to politicise the Belfast Agreement itself in their own favour. It's political interpretation of the Agreement rather than looking at what the Agreement truly says.

Identity, it must be said, is always in flux. Historical inaccuracies can underpin it to the point where there's no interest in changing it. Indeed, violence can push people far away from it that they take on new forms of identity.

By and large, Americans have a number of inaccuracies which underpins their concept of an Irish identity. This can be seen in a handful of articles posted over the last page.

DownNative · 02/05/2023 15:38

To highlight the absurdity of Biden's whole "I'm Irish!" schtick and visit to the island of Ireland...he forgot the last country he visited recently. 🤦‍♂️

Child 1: "What was the last country you traveled to?"

Biden: "The last country I've traveled — I'm trying to think the last one I was in — I, I've been to 89 — I've met with 89 heads of state so far, so, uh — I'm trying to think. What was the last — Where was the last place I was? It's hard to keep track. Um, I was — "

Child 2: "Ireland!" another child yelled in reply.

Biden: "Yeah, you're right, Ireland. That's where it was. How'd you know that?"

The kid should have said China to see how he'd react to that! 🤣

That massive welcome in the Republic of Ireland appears to be easily forgettable for Ol' Joe...

Artstudio1 · 02/07/2023 21:30

I am sorry you've experienced negativity from any Americans. I am American, but my DH is Scottish, and we have lived in both the US and the UK for a long time. My guess is that there are more Americans fascinated by foreign accents vs. those (hopefully, few) sneering.

I think our obsession with our ancestry is partly built into our heritage. Many who emigrated to the US missed their homes and culture and instilled a huge sense of sentimentality and loss in their children/grandchildren/etc. through songs and poems, etc., that is still with us now, good or bad.

SquashedSquashess · 02/07/2023 21:56

ZOMBIE THREAD

Superhanz · 02/07/2023 22:06

LindorDoubleChoc · 14/04/2023 15:52

I'm not aware of any sneering.

I was (and probably still am) very angry at the American supporters of the IRA though. They were not living in the midst of a serious terrorist bombing campaign that claimed many innocent lives.

I think a lot of Americans sympathised with the Irish people. Irish nationalists in the North were treated like second class citizens, worse than second class citizens.

poetryandwine · 02/07/2023 22:07

Two months old is not my idea of a zombie. As someone who lived in America for 15 years and has a British DH I think the post by @Artstudio1 is very interesting.

Florenz · 02/07/2023 22:11

You don't really hear about German-Americans very much. Not like you do the Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans etc. A lot of them changed their names and downplayed their ancestry because of the World Wars.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 03/07/2023 07:17

They also came from different German-speaking countries in Europe, so don't have a single home nation to identify with. That said, I once spent a very entertaining evening at a German-American Octoberfest dinner in Texas, all sausages, beer, schuhplattler, alpenhorns, dirndl, and lederhosen. And possibly yodelling.

DownNative · 03/07/2023 11:18

Superhanz · 02/07/2023 22:06

I think a lot of Americans sympathised with the Irish people. Irish nationalists in the North were treated like second class citizens, worse than second class citizens.

The United States is a huge country. Any sympathy for the Provisional I.R.A was East Coast based in the US.

Even then, it was only a small subset of the "Irish"-American population there as the information I posted from Liam Kennedy shows.

Most US Citizens were NOT in favour of or sympathetic to the Provisionals at all. The minority on the eastern seaboard who were ended up looking like complete hypocrites after 9/11.

At any rate, US private funding of PIRA ended post-9/11 which helped the Provisionals to largely see they had no further outside funding coming in the future. Of course, Gaddafi's Libya was dealt with which was a bigger source of PIRA weaponry.

As I said, only a minority in the US supported the PIRA. Especially as the US Government made it clear that NORAID was a PIRA front and not a humanitarian one as they claimed purely to circumvent US law.

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