To think that the Peter Brookes cartoon of Joe Biden in the Times is pretty offensive towards Irish people?

[Hedwigharlot]

The cartoon depicts him dressed as a leprechaun. It's like a depiction of Irish people from a Punch Magazine in the 19th century. Who thought it was appropriate? And why are the British media working themselves up into such a jealous frenzy over Biden coming to Ireland? Very poor behaviour.

There was no "British-American" culture for Biden to grow up in, though - he wasn't a WASP. He could choose which of his ancestors to identify with anyway. He doesn't deny having English ancestors. He says that they aren't important to his sense of identity.

He is also, obviously, a republican. He is President of the United States. Ireland and America have intertwined histories of revolution, independence from Britain, and republicanism. Britain will celebrate a royal heritage with the coronation of Charles III and that's the right of British subjects, obviously. But other heritages may appeal more to other people.

This isn't about DNA. It's about the values his family chose to maintain and that he chose to embrace. His life story is pretty consistent. He has a bit of a rose-tinted view of the country (or maybe he's just a diplomatic and courteous guest). But he is not much different from thousands of Irish-Americans who come "home" every year. They are real people reflecting on real experiences of life in the Irish diaspora.

@DandyMandy Irish migrants were 'illegals' in many countries not so long ago. We (Irish) should be welcoming immigrants with open arms, the way we would have liked it when we were the (often illegal, sometimes 'criminal') immigrants.

So roughly how much Irish blood does a person have to have before they're allowed to adopt Irish stereotypes without it being offensive?

So we should allow our very small island to be overwhelmed with others? Yeah right. Irish people are too nice for their own good. We need to put our own people first.

@Goldenbear , read up on the equality act, which explains how people are grouped via shared geographical location, culture, ethnicity, religion etc.

If people want to take the piss out of themselves, fine. Have at it. Stereotype other people and that isn't OK.

Whilst you are reading up on your history, you might want to throw in some geography. Regrettably, Ireland is not an island. And isn't that entirely the point? Although I suspect its going right over your head.

I wouldn't reduce it to blood. Genuine cultural identification with Ireland, in such spirit that Leprechauns are adopted in fun or affection, is one thing.

But even if this cartoonist was Irish - the London Times is not. So it should not have printed a cartoon drawing on a long tradition of anti-Irish snobbery in the British media.

@DandyMandy who are 'our own people'? Only those born in Ireland? Only those whose parents were born in Ireland? Both? What if your granny was born in Ireland, but had to emigrate to Liverpool because of the poverty that came of British colonial policy. Wouldn't it be another kick in the teeth if her children and grandchildren couldn't enjoy the benefits of Irishness, just because she suffered the hardships? Irish people know too well the painful, irrevocable losses that go with emigration. If we don't want people coming to Ireland, let's ask what's made them risk those losses, and how we, now a rich nation, can make their countries of origin better places to live.

@DisquietintheRanks It's not quantifiable, not police-able, but either people are Irish and enjoying the silly/stereotypical parts of our culture in good faith or they're not - they're being anti-Irish. But as a guide, if you're writing for the Times, stay well away from attempts to satirise Irish people, or Black people, or racism generally. You'll probably get it wrong and make an eejit of yourself. Likewise if you're surrounded by English people who are finding your leprechaun impression hilarious, or you're using the n word (even in quotes, even just singing along to a song) in a room full of white people, you're probably a long way from wit/satire/ innocent fun, and well on the way to racism.

It's not satire. It's offensive

@Quveas Ireland was an island a century ago, and will probably be a reunified island nation in my lifetime. Partition is a current, and recent, and almost certainly temporary, feature of Irish political geography. Geography without history is an easy route to erasing colonialism and thereby naturalising colonial structures.

Great post. Thank you.

And my point actually whizzed straight over your head too. Because that was exactly what I said! But then, I'm really good at both history and geography thank you. Ireland is not currently an island, and the racism exhibited by some of the English is based on the models of colonialism developed over centuries of oppression and then exported across an empire.

Gosh @Quveas sorry, didn't mean to offend. Clearly I did misunderstand your post. Still can't say I fully understand it, but hey, if we're in agreement, no need to fall out!

'Her lot'????

Fuck me. This is OK now, is it?

Yeah, you sound lovely. Too nice for your own good. Haha.

Well you're not too nice for your own good, so that helps balance it out.

@DandyMandy are you sure you're not British? That kind of sentiment and language would fit in really well in some parts of these small islands, including from our Home Secretary, daughter of immigrants.

As a person who you would presumably call a 'planter' I certainly don't need treated with kid gloves but you're being very derogatory about a large number of people and that's ironic considering the op was calling out what she regarded as stereotyping.

@DandyMandy when you say "her lot" of Priti Patel, what do you mean?

Yes a pop at Brandon himself, not the real Irish.

As the daughter of an Irish Catholic father and English Protestant mother, who has always lived in Britain and has witnessed family conflict on both sides, I would like to express my deepest sympathy to those Irish people on this thread who have made good points but who may be feeling embarrassed by @DandyMandy.

No one knows better than me that you can't pick your own family.

@DandyMandy I get my Irish citizenship through my mum who was born and raised in rural Ireland. She was 17 when she left so barely an adult. She always said she felt like she didn't belong in Ireland anymore and was never really accepted in England either. Sad. I'm only 45 but remember the thick paddy jokes being normal as a child and Irish people were expected to laugh along. On top of derogatory comments about kneecapping, alcoholism and bombing.

I don't live in Ireland but half of my heritage is Irish and it is absolutely right that my mother was able to pass on her citizenship to me. My children won't be able to pass it on and that is right too as it will be remote by then (and their children will never meet their great granny).

There was no money and swathes left. Sending money home of course. Of her siblings only 1 stayed (and he emigrated to Canada for a while). The others ended up in England and America. Funnily the one that stayed ended up the wealthiest of them all in the end as he did so well out of the EU (farmer) and as a result my cousins are all very wealthy too. The poverty they suffered as children and young adults was severe though and Ireland was still pretty poor in the 80's.

Ive only recently returned to Mumsnet after a long break and this thread reminds me of one of the reasons I stepped away.

the wholly ignorant attitude to Ireland it’s culture history and Irish people themselves is so fucking depressing.

Dont tell an entire group of people who were invaded, oppressed and starved for hundreds of years by your country’s imperialist ambitions what is and is not offensive to us.

Irish relationship with its emigrants is part of our culture. Don't dismiss the real attachment the diaspora that were forced to leave had to their home country and passed down to the next generations. And the attachment we have to them. It wasn’t that many years ago the the economic survival of a lot of Irish at home relied on what was sent back from the US. Sometimes from family that there was no hope of ever seeing again.
There may be politicians in America the throw a green cape around them for political benefit. Obama did when he visited. Joe Biden is not one of them. He is a genuine and sincere attachment to Ireland from childhood. He was part of the group of politicians who worked on issues affecting Ireland and Irish people in America for years while in the Senate. He has visited Ireland many times.