Junior doctors

[IamSuperTired]

Before people suggest it, I'm not intending to bash junior doctors. They work incredibly hard in a massively under funded NHS. I was also surprised recently to hear they earn less than I thought.

I am posting to ask if anyone knows how long it takes to go from junior doctor to a more senior level where the pay is better? And what's the career path from medical degree to the grade above junior doc?

I ask because other professions, even in healthcare, also get paid pretty poorly at the lower grades but tolerate it because they will eventually reach v large salaries. Eg. Psychologists do their degree, then usually MSc, then often have to work in band 4 jobs for 3 or 4 years to gain the pre-requisite experience, before moving onto another 3 years doctorate level training (is this equivalent to junior doc?) paid at band 6. So in total it takes them (on average) about 8 years before they reach band 7 NHS wage. Other professions are similar.

I'm asking because I'm trying to work out whether the pay is a little unfair or a lot unfair! Given potential future earnings and when they might be reaped! Just trying to educate myself really. Not sure what the AIBU is :) sorry!

I respect all allied health care staff but get really fed up when the responsibility doctors have to shoulder is not recognised by those in other jobs trying to make comparisons.

My sister is a Band 3 in Scotland (aka has zero actual qualifications) and has just gotten a pay rise to £27K WITHOUT unsocial-able hours etc. she does 30hrs a week (3x 10hr night shifts) and will be taking home just shy of £2K a month.

There’s no way Junior Doctors don’t deserve a HEFTY pay rise

Not a lot of point admitting more medical students until the mess of training is sorted out. 80% of the current lot plan to leave in the next 3 years, so maybe retaining them would be a good start.

mumsneedwine - please stop spouting second hand commentary and disrespecting other professions. Your ignorance about physicians associates compounds your ignorance.
Medicine is an undergraduate degree, physicians associates are a postgraduate degree - the jobs are different.

As a PRHO - I thought I new it all and was the hardest done by in the hospital, as I moved up the ladder, I learned that the hardships were different at different levels of training with differing levels of responsibilities. I thought consultants swanned in and out not realising until many years later that whilst some do do that, the vast majority do many essential unpaid roles to keep training going, hospitals running, ensuring governance , risk etc etc. I also learned that the Band 5 nurse with 20 yrs experience was worth far more than I ever was as a PRHO.
You are listening to a group of v v junior doctors who are still learning .
You are not expert.

I do think they should be paid more but be respectful of others

I was challenged that because I suggested not all junior doctors are working in paediatric ICU type environments (based on my response to an earlier post) that I didn't understand the responsibilities a junior doctor in a more clinical specialist held, I was pointing out that I do but the emotive rhetoric of 'holding lives in our hands daily' helps noone and just annoys people.

What doctors do is important and impressive, it doesn't need that kind of dressing up. That was the entire point that led to your line of questioning and assertions tat noone who isn't a doctor could possible understand you.

I don't think it is possible to completely understand if you have not held that responsibility.

@lookluv I pity any junior doctor who works with you (guessed you were a PA I'm afraid ). I'll spout as much 2nd hand information as I like, because I know the people it comes from and they are ALL leaving the UK - why do you think that makes me angry ? They can't afford to live here any more and have no life. So they are going where they are valued.

Really sad that you can't see why doctors are fed up since you work with them. Oh and most sensible people see medicine as the equivalent of a postgrad degree, that's why it takes 5 years not 3. But lots of new doctors have 2 degrees.

I dont think it matters what they might be on in 10 years time. Consultants are paid consultant salary.

Doctors should be fairly paid for the work they do. Do you think they are fairly paid, now, for the work they do now?

Given the degree time they need to undertake, then the broad range of knowledge they need to retain and recall, to work independently dispensing medicines, doing emergency treatment, working unsuitable shifts and delivering terminal diagnosis and bad news to family? Whilst paying for exams and doing additional revision for speciality exams? Would you?

And I know that the most valuable person on a ward is the band 7 nurse. Because the doctors (some are 35 so not that young, but still apparently junior) tell me.

I think all healthcare workers deserve a massive rise. Better than spending money on unusable PPE.

This was my original point, babies in body bags is unnecessary imagery and muddies the waters.

@lookluv you seem to underestimate the level of responsibility many F1s take on.

I’m a CT2 now but as an F1 I was first port of call for literally hundreds of medical patients alone at night in a large DGH with a med reg who wouldn’t come unless someone was practically peri arrest (to their credit usually stuck in resus).

In orthopaedics I would look after up to 30 patients alone on a normal working day and my seniors told me to suck it up. When I raised concerns I was shouted at until I cried.

This varies but on my ortho job the most support I had was from the band 6 and 7 nurses who were amazing. My ortho reg had no interest in the medical problems and the buck stopped with me. It was hideous. Yes if it went to coroners it’s on the consultant but the day to day responsibility was very much placed on the shoulders of the foundation doctors.

This was a very dysfunctional department but it’s certainly not unique.

The life or death decision making is something I have done within my specialism. The potential consequences for me and my patients are as high stakes as for a doctor.

New doctors (first few nodal points) are paid less than physician associates who cannot even prescribe paracetamol! Or order a chest X ray. We are not compensated fairly for our level of responsibility compared to other colleagues on agenda for change.

I hope our nursing colleagues reject their offer. They work too hard to accept the govt paltry offer.

It ultimately does not matter if someone on mumsnet thinks we don’t deserve our pay restored to 2008 levels. If it isn’t the we will go for careers and countries who will pay the market rate. Who will do our highly skilled and specialised jobs then? Don’t pay us what we’re worth then don’t expect to have a consultant caring for you in twenty years time.

And I've had a rather nice time on the picket line this morning. Went along with cake and tea for the doctors. Never heard so much horn honking in support. Was good to see.
And I've got a lovely orange hat, which I can wear on the teacher picket line later this month (at 56 I've never been on strike before but I've had enough too, as education is in an equally crappy place with not enough staff, but at least no night shifts).

Was so interesting to hear the stories of the staff and devastating to hear so many leaving to live abroad. But they all want to stay, just can't afford a family or have a decent life (one of my students couldn't get the day off for her own wedding, 6 months in advance. Was made to find a swap).

Nope! 8 years before they can take very expensive exams to become eligible to apply for consultant positions, many don’t pass first time. Once these exams are passed they may apply for consultant jobs however there are not loads of consultant posts available and there will be lots of competition for them. Many very experienced doctors are ‘junior’ it’s a most misleading title.
By the way the reason for the 35% is this is the increase they would need to make up for years and years of below inflation pay awards. AKA pay cuts.
The conditions for junior doctors in the NHS are so bad many leave to work abroad. Maybe we should reward them appropriately in the first place.

@Forgooodnesssakenow which other professions take on comparable responsibility as a doctor?

Physician associates cannot even prescribe. And ACPs are usually well supervised (and can be invaluable colleagues) but most don’t work out of hours or if they do work in environments such as ED where there are registrar level doctors around 24 hours a day.

ACPs in ICU have more autonomy but they will never be at work without a registrar doctor or more senior in the dept (from my limited experience of 5 hospital trusts). I work with lots of great ACPs who would describe their own level as somewhere around CT1/2, they know that they are incredibly skilled in their area but don’t have the breadth and depth of training and knowledge that a registrar has. And they have not sat membership examinations for the royal colleges. And they have worked 40 hour weeks only.

It is a consultant doctor that takes ultimate responsibility and it’s them who will take the flak in coroners court. I’d be lost without my ACP colleagues, they’re fantastic but they in almost all cases do not have the same level of responsibility as a doctor.

I love all of my colleagues. Senior pharmacists save lives by catching mistakes and are invaluable, highly skilled and underpaid.

Please elaborate on your specialty as maybe I’m naive but I’ve never seen an AHP with a similar level of responsibility to that of a doctor.

@Lovepeaceunderstanding thank you

Mmm so weird that the 'junior' doctors on here seem to be saying the same as me. Yet apparently I spout nonsense 🤷‍♀️.

To all medical staff, I say a big fat thank you, for sticking with it through covid and for staying in the NHS for now. I don't think I would. I've seen the Oz and NZ ads and I'd be long gone.

I had their thought earlier.

Many roles you get training and the training cost is repayable if you leave in X number of years.

Why not incentivise doctors to stay by reducing loan costs each year they practice and giving allowances.

Maybe we also need to re look at keyworker housing.

I once went to a meeting with other clinical supervisors. I was the only non-surgical consultant there.

I reported that my FY1s had had very poor experiences in previous surgical jobs and were feeling unsupported. The other consultants laughed at me. One of them said, ‘the baby doctors love being given responsibility’. The patronising attitude blew my mind.

I support my FYs and CTs and tell them ‘nothing is too trivial to ask me’ when they start, as they are learning. The lack of support from some senior doctors to juniors is disgraceful.

@lookluv Well said. I appreciate the work you do and the hardships you faced as a junior doctor.

I@Medstudent12 I would love to know too. @Forgooodnesssakenow seems to have gone quiet.

I wanted to be a doctor since I was in my early teens. I knew the pay was bad. However studying medicine was fascinating and I still love the actual work. Most doctors do not go into medicine to become rich. However when I was doing my training, my seniors were seen to be having a "nice" life eg my GP trainer had a long lunch break at home and even had an afternoon nap before afternoon surgery. This doesn't happen in modern general practice where sometimes you don't find time to even eat and have a break. Then I think you become more resentful that you don't reap the financial rewards for the amount of work you do and the responsibility you carry. Eg. A locum GP commands an average wage of £95-100 per hour. I had to pay someone coming to fix my wifi £75+VAT per hour. If my wifi doesn't work it's an inconvenience. However a medical mistake could potentially be fatal

In the western world, UK doctors are probably the poorest paid . There are junior docs who have to work second jobs to make ends meet. Couple that with poor working conditions, emigrating is definitely a desirable option

Phone battery died
An optometrist, honey rose, was not only held accountable but convicted of murder for missing a brain tumour. Is that not comparable?

Audiologists, optometrosts, orthoptists, psychologists, clinical pharmacist absolutely, everyone who works at a band 8a or above clinical role typically holds responsibility, registration and risk of being sued.

I at no point have stated the working the same hours, same requirement for general study, any question of whether long term pay progression should be the same, as you see above I was talking about interpreting and acting upon clinical data.

I went quiet because my stupid phone battery died.

I do feel for our current consultants who are mopping up roles junior doctors are no longer being given but which they themselves had to do as junior doctors so they've been shat on at both ends