Junior doctors

[IamSuperTired]

Before people suggest it, I'm not intending to bash junior doctors. They work incredibly hard in a massively under funded NHS. I was also surprised recently to hear they earn less than I thought.

I am posting to ask if anyone knows how long it takes to go from junior doctor to a more senior level where the pay is better? And what's the career path from medical degree to the grade above junior doc?

I ask because other professions, even in healthcare, also get paid pretty poorly at the lower grades but tolerate it because they will eventually reach v large salaries. Eg. Psychologists do their degree, then usually MSc, then often have to work in band 4 jobs for 3 or 4 years to gain the pre-requisite experience, before moving onto another 3 years doctorate level training (is this equivalent to junior doc?) paid at band 6. So in total it takes them (on average) about 8 years before they reach band 7 NHS wage. Other professions are similar.

I'm asking because I'm trying to work out whether the pay is a little unfair or a lot unfair! Given potential future earnings and when they might be reaped! Just trying to educate myself really. Not sure what the AIBU is :) sorry!

What area do you work in to have "similar" levels of responsibility to junior doctors?

It's a bit outing but it's a clinical role where we work under consultants carrying out the same role as junior doctors within that clinic. There's a shift towards allied health professionals taking a lot of the more basic stuff away from doctors within many specialties

Genuine questions: do you cover the wards, admissions, do overnight shifts, carry the crash bleep, too?

So the doctors would be taking ultimate responsibility in this setting not you.
The weight of responsibility that doctors have is often overlooked.

My point was in response to the insinuation I didn't understand missing something on a scan was a huge responsibility. In terms of reviewing scans, assessing conditions and planning treatments independently I do all of those things as well as spotting other related and unrelated pathologies.

I'm not a junior doctor, I strongly believe they are correct to strike, I also think it's right that there is a gradual increase in their pay because the level of experience a newly qualified doctor enters a specialism with increases SO massively and they start out with a lot to learn. I don't think the rate of pay increase should concern people so much as the actual pay rate itself.

I also think the demands on junior doctors are huge and the changes to improve their consitions even in the 15 years I've been working have thankfully been huge.

The CONSULTANT will be taking ultimate responsibility for both myself and the junior doctors.

Just as I thought. Why say you have "similar levels of responsibility" to a junior doctor when that is not correct. Please don't try to diminish the weight of responsibility that junior doctors have to shoulder. No-one has any idea until they are in that situation and yes I am a doctor.

@Forgooodnesssakenow no they won't. Doctors sign off the scans and prescriptions and the GMC come for them, not the consultant.

I'm a non medical prescriber.

I take full responsibility for the patients in my clinics, prescribing and treatment plans, our junior doctors don't as it happens because theyre currently all very early in our dept.

Laughable that you think prescrbing is similar responsibility to a junior doctor. It is a small part of a doctors role. No wonder doctors are fighting for the right to have their work taken seriously.

If a patient under my team dies, I have to attend the inquest and be interrogated. Even if I have had nothing to do with the patient and their case was never discussed with me. Our coroner has made that clear. The buck very much stops with me and it is incredibly stressful.

I guess that’s the same in big corporations too.

Yes that is my role, what I signed up for etc. But it is definitely important to remember that pay is about responsibility and not just hours worked.

You said earlier your consultant takes responsibility for you and junior doctors. Now you say it is you taking full responsibility?

Sorry, our governing body ALSO come for us in exactly the same way.

I wasn’t only asking as you mentioned that you have the same responsibility as them.

I presume when you say you review scans that a radiologist has reported them (or will do) and that clinical decisions are not made based on reviews by those not trained to report scans - I sincerely hope not, as this would be a huge scandal in the making.

• I was

As you know anyone under hospital care has a named consultant but can see anyone in their team. That could be me or the junior doctors.

Completely agree. Radiologist should be reporting scans.

once again mumneedswine gets it wrong - forgoodssake - as a non medical prescriber - a CONSULTANT will take the responsibility in THEIR clinic not the junior doctor. I carry the can for my juniors - they do not carry the can for me.

Purplewind - your disrespect for other allied health professionals is sad to see. Different jobs and training, have different and equally important roles to play in every healthcare pathway. Respecting the knowledge training and experience of everyone in the multi disciplinary team is what makes a good doctor - not the dismissive arrogance of someone elses skill set you are displaying

I interpret scans and act on the interpretation and treat conditinswithin my specialism and could be sued/struck off etc if I missed something and could miss something leading to serious consequences and potentially death. That specific one is the one I was referring to.

One view, dysfunctional bureaucracy + BMA’s historic cap on medical student numbers + removal of lifetime allowance on pension cap = chronic understaffing + poor working conditions,
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-junior-doctors-really-earn/

@lookluv so in your world no doctor below consultant needs indemnity insurance and never will be referred to the GMC, it will always be the consultant ? That's a strange hospital,

And I do know that the consultant will also be referred to GMC. But so will the junior doctor. So not all the responsibility is off their shoulders.

As far as I understand it, physicians assistants start on £40,000 without being able to prescribe or order scans. They need the F2 to do that (on £34,000). They don't do night shifts or out of hours on calls.
They are a great addition to the NHS, but not sure why they earn so much more. And one of the degrees that can't be taken as a PA is medicine (because they know a lot would jump ship for the better ish snd conditions.

Love to know where I've said anything wrong ? My opinion comes from the ex students who are now F1,2,3 and above. Their words and lives.

The BMA does not have any say over medical student numbers - that would be the GMC and Dept of Health.

What the BMA votes for at its AGM has no impact whatsoever on anything - it is an entirely pointless exercise. They have voted both for and against euthanasia in the past (different years), for banning smoking (obviously hasn’t happened), for banning boxing (ditto), amongst other things. It is an opportunity for some delegates to soapbox, basically. I don’t actually know anybody who has ever been to the BMA AGM, or who would ever waste their study leave on such a thing.

That article is badly-researched trash, I’m afraid.