Junior doctors

[IamSuperTired]

Before people suggest it, I'm not intending to bash junior doctors. They work incredibly hard in a massively under funded NHS. I was also surprised recently to hear they earn less than I thought.

I am posting to ask if anyone knows how long it takes to go from junior doctor to a more senior level where the pay is better? And what's the career path from medical degree to the grade above junior doc?

I ask because other professions, even in healthcare, also get paid pretty poorly at the lower grades but tolerate it because they will eventually reach v large salaries. Eg. Psychologists do their degree, then usually MSc, then often have to work in band 4 jobs for 3 or 4 years to gain the pre-requisite experience, before moving onto another 3 years doctorate level training (is this equivalent to junior doc?) paid at band 6. So in total it takes them (on average) about 8 years before they reach band 7 NHS wage. Other professions are similar.

I'm asking because I'm trying to work out whether the pay is a little unfair or a lot unfair! Given potential future earnings and when they might be reaped! Just trying to educate myself really. Not sure what the AIBU is :) sorry!

I don't think you are comparing like with like. I am a doctor (age 47) and I suppose you might describe us a wealthy certainly comfortable- yes the pension is mind-blowing. I do not come from family money and was state educated BTW.

However we didn't pay tuition fees, had free accomadation on site for the first year after graduating and were the beneficiaries of Tony Blair's NHS reforms as well as being able to buy property in the '90s/early 00's on 100% mortgages.

Completely different times. The FY1s' pay is the same now as mine was in 2000 about 25K a good salary then, now not so much.

My brother is ST3 grade in cardiology. He is cambridge graduate of medicine and also has a phd from cambridge. The previous posters are right. You cant just work straight through your training and magically become a consultant at the end. It's too competitive and their aren't enough job posts. You have to take time out to do research to make yourselves an attractive candidate. My brother is now undertaking a research post. He gets paid 38k. He can't even afford a studio flat where he lives. When he goes back into training he will be on 48k.

Most of the friends he knows a year or two above him who have completed their specialist training cant even get jobs. After a year or two they won't be able to work in their speciality and their training will be wasted.

I hope the doctors strike and strike and strike. Even a train driver earns more. Its disgusting. The public's attitude towards doctors and health care workers is honestly disgusting.

My brother is stressed and burned out. He is planning to quit medicine.

The government is now training health care assistants to do the jobs of doctors after 2 years of training, rather than increasing doctors pay.

Stop talking about so and so who is 50 years old and is really rich. The old consultant contracts have been phased out years ago. They don't exist for newer doctors. If you manage to make it to consultant now you won't earn more than 60- 70k. And youll be over 40 years old before you get to that. Only a tiny percentage of doctors get to that level anyways. The majority of middle grade doctors are earning 40-50k and have to pay thousands in gmc fees and pay for their own exams and trainings. Each exam costs thousands of pounds.

The public are living in la la land. Its time they get a wake up call.

Utter rubbish, other areas of the public services manage to pay their staff competitively. I know civil service apprentices get paid through their degrees and get market level pay thereafter.
My DD (tech grad) earns far more than her doctor BF at equivalent stages in their careers.
There is just no incentive for our brightest people to study medicine now. We will all suffer as a result.

I agree that term junior doctor is a poor one. And they are so under paid.

On a bad day a 'trainee anaesthetist' got the job of holding my hand. That job title isn't much better, made her sound like a YTS.
Someone said later she probably had about 8 years of training to get to that level.

The old consultant contracts have been phased out years ago. They don't exist for newer doctors. If you manage to make it to consultant now you won't earn more than 60- 70k

This just isn't true the Consultant contract has been unchanged since 2003, much to Jeremy Hunt's horror,the starting salary is £89K:

https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/consultants-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-consultants-in-england

I had two children and did a research degree as a junior doctor in a city which was an hour away from home. I paid more than my salary to childcare and this was 10 years ago.

We moved constantly every 6 months to a year during training, never could buy a house or settle my children in a school or nursery throughout my training.

I absolutely support the junior doctors in their strike. You have all seen the increase in number of patients, how poorly NHS is resourced and managed -major brunt is taken by junior doctors. Nursing number and support is so poor, they have all our support.

My colleagues are all in late 40s /early 50s and we can't wait to retire or quit.

The basic pay for an MP is £86,484.
This is before.they add any expenses or allowances. How is this considered acceptable when compared against the income of a junior doctor

The hours a junior Dr works reduce the value of their wages considerably. There is no walking out the door because your shift is finished if a.patineg is unwell. I wonder how many unsocial hours and weekends MP's and how many extra hours they put in after the end of a 12 hour shift.

Junior doctors have to pay insurance,.the cost of any exams they sit (around 1k each )for items such as stethoscopes and car parking.

They can express a preference for where they'd like to be sent in the UK after med school, but it doesn't mean they will get it. If they are an F1 with a family, the family will be expected to move with them.

Let's have a think, in the pandemic who was more useful, a junior Dr ( and let's remember this is a Dr all the way before they become a consultant ) or an MP?

I remember much political posturing, with Nightingale hospitals, which were useless due to the lack of ventilators. I recall Boris enjoying parties because he didn't understand the rules.

I recall Doctors, nurses and carers, being pushed to breaking point working all the hours under the sun and moon. The only thanks they seem to have got was a bit of saucepan banging in the evening.

What short memories we have, if we don't believe Doctors, nurses and carers deserve so much better pay and working conditions than they currently have.

Many of the wealthy doctors you talk of are only so because of their family and background. My friend and I both consultants but she has several properties owned outright, drives latest BMW jeep, two small kids managed by a nanny, husband also consultant, house cost 800k, owns another 800k outright plus others all rented out so has that income. I could only dream of this like many of us. This is all because she has parents with extreme wealth. My situation is very different yet we do the same job only her salary is pocket money to her.

It's normal to be a junior doctor for at least 10 years now, longer if you have children. Training places are very limited, you can be a good doctor and not get one for several years, then its 8 years plus.

In addition for pay having been eroded they also pay 9% of salary to the cost of their training through student loans. Most have little chance of paying that off, unlike other graduates who start with smaller debts and often higher starting salaries.

Covid kept junior doctors here because other countries closed their borders. You can recruit because teenagers are idealistic, retention is a serious problem.

Same here. I've been a band five nurse for 19 years and am only on 32k. So I don't have much sympathy for the doctors complaining. As they will move to the scale very quickly. (I've been a band 6 and hated it. Do that option isn't open!)

I don’t think psychologist is a fair comparator. As soon as you have completed your vocational training you are on band 7. The problems with the route are the years hanging about maybe getting on a course. It’s also completely different structure.

So many saying how awful it is, yet so many still choosing this option.
I think what confuses people is that teens in your DDs cohort and the last few years are making this conscious decision to apply despite knowing about the pay, the conditions, the hours etc but will they then turn around in a few years and complain about these things? Strike about them even?

They are applying because they are idealistic teenagers. When you are that young and don't have dependents, you think that you can beat the system.

Sorry but what a load of shit. Millions of people live on 38k and he cannot afford a studio flat? Come on.
there are no jobs for them? But I thought they were all leaving as it’s so shit? What about their jobs?

Sorry but I don’t buy it. These are not 11yos running around thinking they can save everyone. These are 18yo, capable of living independently, of studying at degree level, of making life choices. They know how to attend open days, how to volunteer, how to watch and listen to the news on the strikes and the thousands complaining about how shit their jobs are. They are capable of taking this on board and making an informed choice.

Sorry posted too soon. TRIGGER WARNING

You should also know two took their own lives. I'm not blaming NHS pay here but these were good ' junior' doctors working in A&E who just couldn't see a way past the stress. So no, not everyone can look forward to being a consultant in ten years.

This isn't discussed enough. If being an NHS doctor is so cushy, why are suicide rates double that of other professions? (www.nhsemployers.org/articles/suicide-prevention-and-postvention).

20 years ago when I was a student we knew that those studying medicine were more likely than us to end up in that situation. It seemed very strange to us as they were "going to be doctors", whereas we were the ones with no career ahead of us and stressing about that.

Btw it's a higher number for nurses.

Increased pay doesn't prevent suicide. But there's so many things wrong with the NHS (which is primarily people) that starting with material appreciation is an important start. It's not the end though.

We should be grateful that people like the poster's DD still want to be a medic, in spite of the applying pay and treatment of NHS staff

If the posters DD strikes she would have every right to.

It's about time people stopped thinking of caring jobs as as callings or vocations, and use this to justify low pay and appalling working conditions. No medic, nurse or carer should have to accept this.

interesting thread, thank you for raising

The term 'Junior' is appalling - surely it's really only appropriate for someone in their first year or two of working!

Do you think other professions just GET pay rises without progressing and further education beyond basic qualifications?
Not progressing - no, however I don't know much about other professions, but most (not all) accountants would have examination and study fees paid for by their employer.
And maybe start on around £30k, but progress quickly from that - I've recently been advised £45k will probably only attract a part qualified.

Your link doesnt work denim. Its also not supportee by ONS data which puts healthcare professionals a long way down that particular list.

Eg. Psychologists do their degree, then usually MSc, then often have to work in band 4 jobs for 3 or 4 years to gain the pre-requisite experience, before moving onto another 3 years doctorate level training (is this equivalent to junior doc?) paid at band 6. So in total it takes them (on average) about 8 years before they reach band 7 NHS wage. Other professions are similar

But NHS band 7 wage (approx £40-50k) is very low for that level of job compared with other jobs that require similar levels of experience/training/qualifications, eg law and banking. People who go into those sectors would probably be on double those wages with that amount of experience.

That's the problem. Why would the brightest and the best work for the NHS when wages are so poor at most levels compared with other jobs they could do (or they do their training/education here then move to Australia/Canada etc)?

It’s not a calling, it’s a job. If you don’t like the pay and conditions of a job, you don’t apply. You don’t take the job then walk out and complain about all the things you knew about prior to applying.

If you’re looking for jobs and the hours and pay don’t suit you, you don’t apply. Why doesn’t the same logic apply to those applying to become doctors?

Most ‘junior’ doctors I work with will be lucky to hit consultant posts 10-15 years post qualification, especially if they are female. Some never will due to massive bottlenecks and the need to relocate across large areas of the country. In my role, I work quite closely with neurosurgeons. I find it obscene that the neurosurgical registrar (who is a junior doctor) who will cut open your head to save your life overnight will be on less than 60K.

Are you having a laugh? I have two DC that are junior doctors. State educated who worked hard to get where they are. Low pay and over 70k of student debt. No chance of seeing this type of "wealth" if it exists for very many years of disgustingly low pay.

Intersectionality, poor me, we are so oppressed 🙄tell it to your patients.

This.

Getting into medicine is hard.

Why?

We are crying out for doctors and need the, to keep the nhs running.

Yet they can't get in, spend 10 years on average training and earn little more than lifeguards at our local gym after 6 years of uni.