Junior doctors

[IamSuperTired]

Before people suggest it, I'm not intending to bash junior doctors. They work incredibly hard in a massively under funded NHS. I was also surprised recently to hear they earn less than I thought.

I am posting to ask if anyone knows how long it takes to go from junior doctor to a more senior level where the pay is better? And what's the career path from medical degree to the grade above junior doc?

I ask because other professions, even in healthcare, also get paid pretty poorly at the lower grades but tolerate it because they will eventually reach v large salaries. Eg. Psychologists do their degree, then usually MSc, then often have to work in band 4 jobs for 3 or 4 years to gain the pre-requisite experience, before moving onto another 3 years doctorate level training (is this equivalent to junior doc?) paid at band 6. So in total it takes them (on average) about 8 years before they reach band 7 NHS wage. Other professions are similar.

I'm asking because I'm trying to work out whether the pay is a little unfair or a lot unfair! Given potential future earnings and when they might be reaped! Just trying to educate myself really. Not sure what the AIBU is :) sorry!

Responsibility, yes, skills, yes, the idea that every doctor, junior or otherwise is working in a paediatric ICU or something is nonsense.

I work with consultants in a speciality who if they had to lead a resus would be having a helluva a bad day and would shit themselves somewhat at the unfamiliarity.

Agenda for change means if you're earning top of 1 payscale you go to that payscale after promotion too so there's no pay cut.

@SacreBleeurgh but the conditions etc go hand in hand with the pay. The lack of a a decent wage is why so many leave, meaning the remaining staff have to do more. It's a v viscous cycle.

Training is not like we'd think it is. F2 in A&E at 3am can refer to a more senior doctor, if they're not busy, otherwise it's just deal with it. On your own (well, lovely nurses there to support and usually offer fantastic advice, but doctors GMC registration is on the line).

The saying, see one, do one, f one up seems to now be just do one. It is not safe for anyone but amazingly these doctors just get on with it.

And I say again. It's 'junior' doctors asking for pay restoration, not consultants. Yet.

Doctors pay 9.8% of their salary as pension contribution.

Consultants pay 13.5%.

There is a reason this was planted. It's too much to deal with for far too many, the relentless pressure in work and exams outside the 72 hour week.

why should we pay juniors more and limit the pay of consultants so there is less of a gap - are you serious.

My juniors barely fart without running decisions through me - that is how we teach and learn. So I do my job, check their work and take the responisbility for them but you think I should be paid less - the world has gone mad.

I might as well stay as a junior and never progress.

I think F1 doctors pay is comparable to a new nurse.physio etc and is appropriate for the level of responsibility and hours they have.
Ignoring some of the hyperbole that some of my junior colleagues are spouting. They really are still training. Agenda for change brought in comparable pay for comparable jobs - so physios, nurses etc have some parity with admin, allied hps etc. If you look at the doctors pay scales they fit in the bands
Band 5 nurse - newly qualified is F1 doctor pay - problem for nurses is most jobs aare band 5 and you get nurses with 20 yrs experience stuck on band 5 - then that is shit pay.

Band 8d/9 agenda for change is consultant level pay just given a different name.

Having lived and worked in NZ and OZ - there are swings and roundabouts andit is not all about the weather. Trianing opportunities in surgery, cardiology etc are limited for foreigners but of you want to be a GP then great. Anyone seen a grocery bill in nz and oz recently - the big figure does not necessarily equate to the cost of living. Hours are defintiely better down under though in certain specialities.

Because as we can see, very few people do want to be Doctors, nurses and carers due to the pay and working conditions.

Hence the reliance on locum staff and staff from abroad.

Yes, it's the top insofar as the consultant post is the top of the tree. I have no idea what line you're taking with suggesting that it isn't - whether you're not complaining that registrars are paid too much or consultants too little - it's unclear and seems pretty meaningless. Obviously the opportunities to progress are there too and quite rightly you will have more to offer at 55 than 40.

Not everyone reaches the top of any profession. Not everyone deserves to.

They may not physically put a body in a bag but, for example, miss a lung nodule on a scan and it could go from curative to palliative by the time the patient presents again. Is that so hard to understand?

@lookluv you must have an amazingly job with plenty of spare time, which is fantastic. From speaking to F1 and 2s, and 5th year medics, they've had to just get on with things with little or no support - mostly from nurses if anyone at all. Maybe you could help other wards do what you do ? But please don't dies for the whole NHS and undermine what 99% of others are saying. You qualified when it was free, you got free accommodation and help with fees. And much more take home pay as a % of the average.

Speak for the whole NHS.

Can someone explain the extra hours payments? Actual pay is enhanced by overtime according to this?

BMA Ju ior Doctors Contract 2022/2923

@KnittedCardi so they have a contract for 40 hours a week. However none of them work that, as they will be on Rita for a minimum 48, potentially 72 hours (no choice in their rota). For any hours before 9pm this is at basic rate (so eg £14.09) if after 9pm (do nights/twilight shift) it is at an enhanced rate.

So overtime is paid, like a lot of jobs, but us not optional, However, they will also do many hours unpaid at handovers.

Hopefully not in Rita ! On rota 😂.

Not at all, I'm an allied health professional with similar levels of responsibility working alongside junior doctors.

My issue isn't with the level of responsibility but with the nonsense rhetoric. It's not at all difficult to understand.

I support the strikes and the need for a real terms pay rise. I don't support the nonsense rhetoric

This is an excellent post - thank you.

@SacreBleeurgh
You could retrain as a doctor yourself since we have national shortage. In fact all those questioning retrain! Then we will have more doctors and that will solve the problem!

Eh? I am one..

One thing that got me through the junior doctor years was knowing that one day I would be a consultant. And I would then be able to relinquish some of the more tedious roles that I had to do then.

I have found that over time, consultants are now doing a lot of that work now, on top of their immense consultant-level responsibility.

One thing to watch out for is that we don’t make the junior doctor roles more palatable by making the consultant role less attractive. Every level needs decent pay and conditions to attract good applicants.

2000-2005 - Medical School
2005-2007 - PRHO / FY2 Programme
2007-2009 - Core Surgical Training
2009-2017 - Orthopaedic Specialty Training
2017-2018 - Post CCT Foot and Ankle Fellowship
2018-2019 - Post CCT Major trauma fellowship
2019 - Consultant Post

So 19 Years for an orthopaedic surgeon.

And yes, my pay has steadily improved through those years,, but that isn't the point here.... New foundation doctors get payed less in absolute terms than I did - I got £22k + 80% banding from memory, plus accommodation with the bills paid and meals in the mess, probably worth around £45k in today's money. Current FY1s get around £30-36k depending on their rota, and none of the perks....

Imagine if the minimum wage had stayed the same since it was introduced (£3.60) or if pensions had been frozen, instead of triple-locked over the same time period.

I think it is really quite interesting how there are people who believe that it is reasonable to compare a junior doctor's pay to the average joe on the street and not the highly skilled, highly trained and educated, highly responsible professional they are. Why not have a look at what lawyers and accountants are earning as a comparison for a start as well as looking at doctor's pay in other countries.

We seem to live in a society where professional qualifications and training are just not valued by the average person anymore. They don't see that these things should attract any sort of financial premium in earnings at all resulting in the huge brain drain we are seeing both from the public sector and the UK in general.

The reality is that our medical doctors are a globally valuable commodity, if we continue to underpay them they will increasingly leave to ply their trade elsewhere. Whether Debbie who works in customers services thinks that £58k a year is a lot of money for a "senior junior doctor" post is irrelevant. People need to get a fucking clue.

Of course the government want you to think that these people are greedy overpaid socialists because they don't want to pay them anymore money and they don't care about the NHS at all. They are trying every trick in the book to make any public servant who is triking for better pay look bad further damaging the relationship between the government and its public servants, again these guys don't care about that they have been slagging off public sector workers for decades.

*DenimSkirtLove · Today 10:02
I would never encourage anyone to become a doctor now. Even for NHS consultant pay. The jumping through hoops, last-minute oncall rotas, being moved every six months with barely any notice makes a junior’s life hell.

And then the amount of responsibility placed at consultants’ feet, the indemnity charges, lack of respect from
management etc have made it rubbish. I will stick it out till the end. But nobody should consider it the good career it used to be.*

This post is the prevailing view of most juniors I know. They have been like frogs in boiling water and have only just woken up to how horrific conditions are in relation to their piss poor pay (and huge debt). It is a disgrace and yet the right-wing press have done a stellar job painting it as greed to appeal to their moronic voters.

Anyone not on side with the junior doctors can start making their emigration plans now and leave this Tory-ruined sinking-ship mess of a country now because there is absolutely nothing the government is doing that will make it better in years to come. Pay people in public services adequately FOR FUCK’S SAKE. Starting with junior doctors and teachers.

mumsneedwine you are a ........- please get your facts right. My parents paid fees because my father worked for HMForces overseas - my whole life. Our last posting was not in the EU ergo I qualified for overseas student fees. £10k pre clinical, 12, 12.5 and 15K for clinical years. I worked as a nursing auxiliary to pay my way.

Free accommodation - seriously on a 1:2 or 1:3 meant I lived in the hospital and once on a 1:4 you paid. Most of us had a home elsewhere otherwise you were really there 24/7. I you think an oncall room is free accommodation you have no clue what you are talking about.

Yes F1 and F2 are expected to go and see and assess and come up with a plan - sorry I see this every day on the wards in the 3 hospitals my job covers. They are not left carrying the can and yes I speak to lots of them. Making decisions is hard - often I have to say you have come up with the answers - there is more than one way to treat this - which one are you going to go for. That final responsibility decision is scary, hard but they get guidance on it and support. What is noticeable is younger generations are less keen to take responsibility and take the leap and need more guidance and support - I can say that as a current trainer of some experience

AS to pay mumsneedwine - I have just dug out one of my first payslips from a PRHO in general surgery. my working fortnight consisted of
M 0730-0000
T 0000-1700
W 0730-0000
T 0000-1700
F0730 - 0000
Sat 0000-0000
Sun 0000-000
M 0000 - 1600
T0730-0000
W0000-1400
T 0730-0000
F0000-1600ish
Sa off
Sun off I took home the princely sum of £1045 -£1100

My generation of doctors fought for your childs generation to never have to do those hours - they were beyond ridiculous, pay seemed relatively good compared to my sister who was a trainee lawyer at the time but I was working 3 times the hours but hey ho it was great being the lowest paid person in the hsopital at a weekend on £1.07 per hour!! . No one should have to know that gut wrenching feeling at 1600 on a Sunday afternoon knowing you still has another night to go -snatching 1-2 hours here and there in a cold room on an appalling bed and no food around.
So please stick your patronising offensive comments where the sun does not shine. I fought for better working hours for my profession and to support your childs generation to never have to experience what I did. All consultants have been junior doctors - we do remember and never want to go back to the old days. I paid my exam fees - no one has ever had them paid for themselves.

I have done nights for the last strike and am on my 3rd out of 4 nights this time to support them. MY Easter holiday has been cancelled and my children have not seen me other than asleep - so who sacrificed what.

Rude arrogant ill informed patronising comments like yours make my blood boil and yes I do see what junior doctors do on a daily basis in person.

I very much agree. But please let's not single out certain areas of the public sector for individual treatment - that is the government's plan. The reality is that all professionals in the public sector have seen huge pay erosion, increasing workloads, worsening conditions and an increasingly hostile public (egged on by constant government criticism).

Ultimately anyone can argue what they like about doctors pay. But if doctors feel they are not being paid enough they will leave the profession.

Doctors (consultants) in the private sector still go through the same medical schools and nhs training so less junior doctors means less consultants so has an affect on all healthcare, even if you have the means to pay.