Junior doctors

[IamSuperTired]

Before people suggest it, I'm not intending to bash junior doctors. They work incredibly hard in a massively under funded NHS. I was also surprised recently to hear they earn less than I thought.

I am posting to ask if anyone knows how long it takes to go from junior doctor to a more senior level where the pay is better? And what's the career path from medical degree to the grade above junior doc?

I ask because other professions, even in healthcare, also get paid pretty poorly at the lower grades but tolerate it because they will eventually reach v large salaries. Eg. Psychologists do their degree, then usually MSc, then often have to work in band 4 jobs for 3 or 4 years to gain the pre-requisite experience, before moving onto another 3 years doctorate level training (is this equivalent to junior doc?) paid at band 6. So in total it takes them (on average) about 8 years before they reach band 7 NHS wage. Other professions are similar.

I'm asking because I'm trying to work out whether the pay is a little unfair or a lot unfair! Given potential future earnings and when they might be reaped! Just trying to educate myself really. Not sure what the AIBU is :) sorry!

The term junior doctor is ridiculous. I though it meant the first 2-3 years until just this weekend when my doctor cousin said she was striking. She's been a qualified doctor for 10 years.

I'm a teacher - 16 years in, head of faculty. But I'm not senior leadership or a head. If I was referred to as a 'junior teacher' I'd be spitting feathers. So demeaning. It needs to change for doctors.

And that is exactly what they are doing - leaving the country or the profession altogether

for me from qualifying - 13 yrs
PRHO - 1 year - hrs per week 100-120 hrs
1 yr OZ general working
SHO 3 yrs hrs per week 70-120 dependent on job
Research 1 yr hrs per week 8-17-1800 ish 5 no weekends
SPR - 6 years - 80-90hrs per week yr 1, 80hrs per week yr 2, 100hrs per week yr 3, 70hrs er week yr 4, 70 hrs per week yr 5, 60 hrs per week yr6
Fellowship - 18months -
Consultant - full time nhs no private timetabled 48 hrs per week - actually do 65+ - 15ish hours not paid but if I did not do it - pt care would suffer.

Fairly standard pathway - I have 4 degrees, number of professional other qualifications.

I love what I do ,but find that the progression along the pathway and leaaving some of the less pleasant tasks behind has reversed and I now do much of the work that I did as an SHO which is now deemed in appropriate for my junior colleagues but there is no one to pick it up - so I do it for the patients - such is life.

I resent the guilt tripping from colleagues, admin staff and the general public that I should sacrifice my time, family and life simply because I am a doctor and feel good about it - I don't. The guilt tripping is now much worse or I am mor sensitive to it.

Forgot to add - I earn circa £95k gross but paid £32k in pension tax last year!

This hyperbole annoys me too, I have a child who has been saved by the NHS several times by paediatric a and e doctors and NICU doctors.

However the vast majority of specialities do not involve putting the bodies of dead children in a body bag and why on earth would you want to throw that imagery out there to some of us for whom that has almost been a reality? Let alone this who have lost children. Have a word with yourself.

See all of this I agree with, I am very pro doctors being well compensated for their job. I think all the overly emotional rhetoric around saving lives etc just muddies the waters.

It s ahighly specialised role, requiring lots of training and should be adequately paid, more importantly though the culture of unpaid overtime in the NHS needs to change and the expectation of going above and beyond for no monetary reward!

the overly emotional rhetoric around saving lives etc just muddies the waters

I am mixed about this - I don’t think you can just take out the nature of the job and talk finances and hours. The level of responsibility and skills is crucial factor.

10 years plus after graduating, they are paid far too little, women often much longer.

It’s disingenuous to suggest that people should know what they’re getting themselves into. There’s no way you could possibly understand the physical and emotional demands of the job until you do it.

It’s not just about pay but about conditions too. Having leave but having to swap oncalls so that you end up working extra either side of your leave, having to get a new job every 6-12 months with no idea of where you’ll be working. Juniors towards the end of training are likely to have families so it’s not easy if you get posted miles away. The job takes its toll on your partner and your kids.

Healthcare has become so much more complex over the years, people living longer, better diagnostics, meaning people have multiple health problems. Expectations have become high with people expecting that they’ve paid their taxes and therefore can expect any treatment.

The whole thing just isn’t sustainable as it currently is. If doctors don’t get a fair wage there will be less and less retention. Waiting lists will go up further, getting a GP appointment will be become harder, waits in a&e will get longer.

Staff are the nhs’ greatest asset and without them there is no nhs. But unless doctors (and other professions) are treated and paid fairly they will walk away. This will affect everyone. Even those that can afford private healthcare.

I don't understand this either.

I agree junior doctors seem under paid, but by increasing their salaries significantly then surely we'd also be increasing consultants salaries who are already well paid by any objective standard. In most other professions the rises are more smooth, so surely that should be looked at.

I do agree things like housing, medical exams and so forth should be covered and not come out of a relatively low salary.

@QueenCremant it's so simple, isn't it. Pay staff a fair wage (& 35% is a starting point but Barclay won't even meet to negotiate), more stay, better conditions. Less locum/agency pay, which is expensive, more money for support staff.

I'm afraid I now believe the Tories want the NHS to fail so their friends can make loads of money from private. Blaming the doctors (& looks like nurses going back in strike, potentially followed by consultants) seems their tactic at the moment. Fortunately the public don't seem to agree (82% support in a GMB poll today).

@rookiemere so you think £80,000 is too much for a consultant ? When MPs earn more ? Not sure I agree when I see what other professionals, 10-15 years into their careers with several degrees and endless experience are paid.
We need these people to stay in the UK or we have NO healthcare.

To be totally correct the starting pay is £88,000. I still can't believe this is too much for being in charge of the health of hundreds of patients.

@mumsneedwine I did not say £80k was too much for a consultant to earn. I simply said that a consultant's salary is a decent one by most people's standards.

I don't begrudge it, but I don't think someone on £80k needs a 35% pay rise ( which is I believe what junior doctors are asking for) to remain in the profession.

@rookiemere consultants are not asking for any pay rise currently.

£80k is a decent salary by most people's standards.

However, when you compare it with other experienced professionals who have decades of experience, multiple professional qualifications etc etc, not so much,

Look at all the Mumsnetters in 'big jobs' who earn £100k+ with bonuses on top.

They're all in law, tech, finance etc. Not medicine.

Doctors have choices they are being wooed every hour , these type of ads are hourly. The big management consulting companies run fast track conversion courses for ex doctors.

Yup. Constantly being offered more abroad. It's not just the money, it's the conditions.

In any industry you have to pay market rates to keep staff, and medicine is a global market. So the NHS needs to pay the going rate, as they did in 2008. That's why they are asking for pay restoration not a rise.

This is not a particularly long time at reach the top post in a career. In fact a consultant gastroenterologist once told me that he considered it an advantage of medicine that it was possible to reach the top of your career (ie consultant level) in 14 or 15 years as this was much faster than someone in a city job wanting to become a senior partner.

I don't think your childcare constraints and the fact that it will take you longer (or never) to reach the top are any negative reflection on the opportunities for advancement within medicine as this is common to all industries. One cannot be training, advancing and at home with the children all at once.

Gigihadr
Junior doctors have had their pay go down in real terms by 26%
MPs have had their pay rise in real terms by 40%
says it all really

The average age for an MP is around 50

Labour MP, Rosena Allin-Khan (aged 44/nearly 45) is also a doctor - her earnings from St George's Hospital Trust are registered here;
https://members.parliament.uk/member/4573/registeredinterests#:~:text=The%20Register%20of%20Members'%20Financial,after%20the%20interest%20has%20ended.

If we don't pay them, they will go. If they go, we don't have any junior doctors now or consultations in the future. It really is that simple.

F2s bring offered £100,000 package to move to Australia on outback or £85,000 to Western Australia. For 35 hours a week. And guaranteed training contracts. Canada offering £72,000 and NZ £75,000. We offer £34,000 for 40 hours, but will likely work 48-72. These are intelligent people. What would you choose ?

Personally I'd quite a doctor in the UK that I don't have to pay for.

Actually I'd just like a doctor. Weirdly the ones in private practice also had to train in the NHS.

That looks like she does a few agency shifts to keep her skills up should she lose her seat and decide to go back to medicine as her main job.

MPs get paid a set rate no matter how old they are/what experience they have. There are MPs in their 20s who also earn the MP salary of £84k plus expenses.

I don't know what any of this has to do with salaries of full time hospital doctors in the first decade or so of their career.

{beeps horn in support of junior doctors on the picket line}

Or whatever the internet equivalent of that is.

But it’s not the top, is it? Bottom of the consultant pay scale is frequently a real terms pay cut compared to top of registrar scale, for various reasons, and by comparison to industries requiring similar levels of training and responsibility, particularly in the private sector, is absolutely nothing to write home about.

I do think the BMA aren’t doing themselves any favours in how the argument for pay restoration is being presented, and more focus needs to be placed on issues with conditions, safety and lack of support and training, but absolutely no one can realistically argue that doctors are ‘well paid’ in training for what the job itself actually entails.

And I didn’t say anything of the sort regarding opportunities for advancement. I was stating the reality that for many of us, regardless of what senior consultants are paid, these are not the figures that we will be anywhere near earning at any point in our careers.