Nursery issue - Toddler was told not to tell me

[crimsonpeak]

What would you do in this situation?

DD (2) is a lively, chatty and happy little girl. After I picked her up from nursery today she told me that another little girl had hit her on the hand with a toy and that she had told the little girl that she was going to tell me about what she had done. She then said a member of staff had told her not to tell me.

So - a nursery worker told my child not to tell
me about an upset at nursery. I am not concerned about the ‘incident’ - neither child was injured, kids snatch and bash, it’s what they do and it’s our job to help them develop into kind and thoughtful adults. My concern is that my DD was told not to tell me about it. I think in any context this is not the right thing to be saying to a child, whether you think the incident was minor or otherwise.

I raising my DD to know that she is to come to me and tell me if anything has upset her. If someone has hurt her etc. I have my own history of childhood trauma so it is very important to me that my child knows that she can come to me, always. I was told not to tell about what was happening to me as a child and I didn’t and things got very bad for me.

I have spoken to nursery who seem more concerned about my child’s behaviour towards the other girl than about my concerns that they have told a child not tell their mother something that upset them. They said my child put their finger in the other girls face and was unkind and made the other girl cry. I said I didn’t condone that but that was not my main issue.

The manager said they want to talk to my child about how to be kind at nursery and I have said I am fine with this but I also want to be present to reiterate that she can come to me and tell me anything. I now feel this is too much and what actually should have happened is at the time of the ‘incident’ the staff should have said what she did was not right but that she could talk to me about it, of course. The manager described my child as wilful and that if she was male she probably wouldn’t have responded with such upset - to which I said that I know my child is ebullient and I don’t want her to be inappropriate with other kids but also I do feel that as soon girls are told too young that they need to ‘be kind’ and effectively smile and suck it up.

AIBU? What would you do now in my shoes? I feel very upset about it but also relieved that my little one was able to tell
me about it.

I think you have to remove your DC. There are so many issues with their response. They shouldn't have told her not to tell you. They shouldn't have been defensive when you raised it as an issue. They absolutely shouldn't have tried to distract you from the issue by turning it into a problem with your DD's behaviour when they obviously hadn't planned to contact you to discuss your DD's actions. And the sexist comment is the icing on the cake.

Read the thread. The worker and my child’s account were the same. The other little girl hit my child on the hand with a wooden shape sorter. My daughter put her finger in her face and said she would tell me about what happened. The nursery worker said don’t tell mummy. I am sure they said that as in their eyes there was no need to do so but I have shared my concerns on this numerous times above.

Of course I don’t disagree that the worker should have intervened, but telling my daughter not to tell me about what happened is not on. I am a mother of two and know very well how common these spats are. I feel like a referree some days!

I think you're totally ignoring the nuance of a situation by saying never tell a child not to tell their parent something, no matter the circumstances as there are often times it is appropriate to say words to the effect of "You don't need to tell mummy" without meaning "Don't breathe a word of this to your parent at all" but more "It's something that can be dealt with here and now, you don't need to tell mummy later as it will have been dealt with appropriately at the time by the people currently in charge". You're doing your child a disservice to make her think that she can't be corrected if she uses "I'm telling!" as a way to threaten/intimidate other children.

• Child gets hit accidentally but with no lasting damage and then threatens the other child with words to the effect "I'm telling my mummy on you!" whilst pointing in their face
• The other child, who didn't do it maliciously and who is upset at hurting another child and being threatened gets upset
• The staff member who saw it all happen and has checked over the injured child and can see there is no injury or cause for concern tries to diffuse the situation. "No, we don't need to tell mummy, I'm here to sort it out. It was an accident, Jenny needs to remember to be more careful with the toys and Sarah needs to remember to use your kind words. Jenny can you say sorry for hitting Sarah with the train? ... Sarah can you say sorry for using unkind words to Jenny? ... Lovely, shall we all go and read a story?"

That is a totally acceptable use of "don't tell mummy" as they aren't saying that your child should never tell you anything, they're trying to teach your child that she can't use "telling mummy" as a threat to other children.

That is totally different to if they said "We don't need to tell mummy you fell off the top of the climbing frame" or "Don't tell mummy that Sarah repeatedly bashed you over the head with a toy train because there wasn't enough staff in the room to supervise you adequately" because they're trying to cover up a safeguarding issue or an injury caused by their negligence.

No nursery can completely align with every parents views on eveything. For starters one parent's views won't align with another's. And they have a lot of children and parents to satisfy.
The only person who can look after her in a way that aligns with your views, is you.

I once saw an ad on the pinbard at my local baby cilnic. It was from a mum looking for a childminder for her one year old (the same age as mine at the time). She literally listed every single thing that she wanted her childminder to do. From morning until evening, her child had to be treated, practically and emotionally, exactly as her mother wanted. It was really quite an insane list. It also meant that the minder couldn't look after any other children (nap times specified to the minute, and overlapping any school or playgroup pick up time). 35 years later I still remember it, and wonder how that child turned out.

Thankyou. On reflection when I picked her up today the nursery worker in question told me she had been ‘emotional’ and didn’t elaborate. I said maybe she was tired as she woke up around 5.30am today and she didn’t volunteer any other information - and then a queue was forming behind me with other parents wanting to collect their children so I left it there. My DD was happy to see me and in good spirits, as she usually is when I collect her. I am sad to be considering moving her as I don’t want to uproot her and as I posted earlier I was very happy with their pre-school provision but the managers response today gives me pause.

The manager also said that my DS probably wouldn’t have reacted in this way due to him being a boy - totally unnecessary comment and not right to bring my DS into it as he no longer attends nursery (he’s at school now).

She also said she would be talking to my DD about her behaviour and that’s when I said I would also be present - as it needs to be reiterated by staff that my DD can tell
me anything - but in all
honesty, if I went to such a meeting and then left her in their care - what would they be like towards her and what would they say to her? I just feel like it’s an untenable situation the more I think about it.

It is absolutely not unreasonable to expect that my child’s caregivers support my view on my DD being able to confide in me. That is basic safeguarding. I am my DDs advocate and that’s just the way it is.

She's been there for two years without incident and you're wanting to remove her because she was told not to tell tales? Is this the approach you'll take towards her schooling as well?

I appreciate your considered response - but how is my 2 year old going to differentiate between things to tell me and things not to tell me? I don’t expect my toddler to appreciate nuance - I just want her to be able to tell me anything she needs to, and she should be supported in that view. I will get a clearer picture tomorrow and go from there. This was a minor scuffle between two toddlers - both in the wrong to varying degrees, I don’t dispute that, but the message ‘don’t tell mummy’ in any context is not acceptable to me.

“Untenable situation?” Oh my goodness I am cringing, you are making far far too much out of this. Please stop harassing these poor people and move on. This is not some conspiracy against you, it’s just a spat between a couple of two year olds that had been resolved. Your daughter needs to learn to be a bit kinder and stop using you as a threat. That’s it.

Hardly. Read the thread - another poster has commented succinctly on telling tales and the concerns around that.

I made a phone call that I was entitled to make. Is that harassment?

OP, I completely agree with you. Children should never be told not to tell parents about ANYTHING, even if it is very very minor and even if they are 'tattling'. The worker could have dealt with the situation without telling your child that she wasn't to tell you about this incident.

Yes, your child basically was threatening the other child that you would come and tell her off. No, that's not good. But the nursery worker could have gently explained to Lucy that the adults in the room would be dealing with the situation, not Sarah's mummy, without telling Sarah that she wasn't to tell her mummy.

So called 'tattling' can be irritating, but children should be free to tattle away as much as they want to. Doesn't mean we as adults have to respond the way the child wants. We can judge the appropriate response. But children should feel they can tell mummy anything because sometimes it isn't tittle tattle.

@crimsonpeak I have read the full thread, with growing disbelief. Mountain and molehill springs to mind.

Thanks all. I feel like it’s getting to that time of night when mumsnet becomes a bit like the Wild West. I won’t be commenting further on this post now but will be considering other perspectives mentioned, which I appreciate.

Last post - YES. This is exactly it. Right on the money. Thankyou for your helpful response.

Again, I think you are misunderstanding. I don’t think the message was “don’t tell your mum”. I think the message was - don’t threaten other children with your mum.

Because one is clearly a response to something your child said as a threat (whether they understand it as a threat or not, for most toddlers "Telling mummy" = "You're going to get into trouble") and another is telling your child what to do apropos of nothing. If your child brings up telling a parent then the caregiver is not in the wrong to correct them.

It's no different to if your child comes to tell you about every tiny misdemeanor another child makes, it's not wrong to tell them not to "tell tales" as long as you have defined to them what is a "tale" and what is a genuine concern that they should report, and it's never too early to start reinforcing the difference. As an ex teacher and as a current parent I have had to tell many children over the years to stop telling tales as well as tell them not to threaten other children with "telling on them" as it's just as negative a behaviour as whatever the original child is doing to be "told on". I will always encourage children to report bullying/dangerous behaviour etc but it is important to differentiate between what is a reportable issue (eg safeguarding) and what is a playground spat that should be dealt with on the moment and moved on from, and modelling that from an early age including age appropriate versions of "Don't tell mummy" is not unreasonable.

Clearly your trust in the nursery is gone so I'd recommend taking your child out now before relations sour beyond redemption but IMHO I think you're overreacting to say that the nursery workers can never tell your child "Don't tell mummy" in any context ever when there are many reasons why "Don't tell mummy" is a reasonable response to a situation.

We had a girl at our nursery who was very wilful, often quite malicious and would often try to snatch toys or provoke other children and then act like the victim when the child retaliated. Mum didn’t believe she could do any wrong so it was challenging to try and teach her to be considerate to others. She knew that if she threatened to tell her mum then mum would kick off. This carried on well into primary school and unsurprisingly the little girl believed that if she ruled the roost at home she could do so at school. If these precious parents knew what hard work it is working in a nursery, dealing with spats literally all the time can get wearing and yes sometimes you don’t give the perfect textbook response but you do your best and in this instance the worker was most likely just encouraging the girl not to use her mum as a threat rather than telling her to keep secrets. By her own admission I think the OP is reacting because of things that had happened to her which prevents her seeing the situation objectively.

But your DD was able to discriminate between “don’t breathe a word of this to your mother” and “don’t threaten your mate with telling your mum” - because she did tell you!

at the very least, your message that she should always be able to tell you anything has sunk in. (And I agree, a vital message it is too).

I initially thought this was a mountain out of molehill, but the manager saying she “wants a word” with your DD about her behaviour, really bothers me…she’s 2! The only time for such a chat is the moment. Overarching chats about behaviour in general are not a thing for 2 year olds!

Your child told you that the other girl cried as she threatened to "tell mummy" on her. When in fact, this is what happened : They said my child put their finger in the other girls face and was unkind and made the other girl cry.

So it's a tale, one in which your daughter comes all out as soft, fluffy and innocent after being bashed by the "baddie" .

In fact, it's just another boring day in the office full of squeaky tiffs between poopy-arsed two year olds that you OP, have blown out of all proportion. Your daughter told you (half the truth). Gold star! Where's the issue?

"I'll tell my mum" mums are a certain type. I have one of those. I could clear a whole playing-field of teenagers by "I'll tell my mum" 😂

@Atnilpoe
I initially thought this was a mountain out of molehill, but the manager saying she “wants a word” with your DD about her behaviour, really bothers me…she’s 2! The only time for such a chat is the moment. Overarching chats about behaviour in general are not a thing for 2 year olds!

T'was most likely a reaction to OP's behaviour, sort of a projection...

But there's no indication that OP would have 'kicked off'. She has repeatedly said it was a very standard toddler spat and not a big deal at all and that she recognises that both children behaved badly, which is completely unremarkable for 2 year olds. The only issue she has is the message her daughter was given about not telling. OP does not at all seem like the kind of parent who would go in and make a fuss about another child hitting hers with a wooden toy and it's unfair to suggest that she would. These things happen. That's not the issue.

Obviously nobody's perfect and nursery workers just like anyone else can say things that aren't ideal, but then you can correct yourself rather than doubling down and that kind of message should be a no-no for anyone working with children. 'Never tell a child not to share information with their parents/guardians' should be an important part of safeguarding training, I would hope? Toddlers and young children can't do nuance, you need to be crystal clear on important principles like that.

I'm surprised by the number of posters who think that a two year old is likely to be able to learn the difference between "telling tales" and the kind of thing that they really should be reporting, reliably enough that there's no risk they'll keep something to themselves that they should be sharing. And surprised if they think the DD will infer that it's the specific types of thing that we think of as tale-telling which she shouldn't tell mum about, rather than either just this specific thing, or a huge range of things including some she should be passing on.

I remember finding it confusing sometimes as a little kid (though older than OP's DD) and feeling I shouldn't tell adults things that were upsetting me, because "telling tales" never seemed to be well-defined (much like "talking back", which had similarly vague parameters and a similarly confusing name from a child perspective). TBH, I'm nearly forty and I'm still occasionally unsure exactly where the dividing line is, and I've seen no end of MN threads where people are split between those urging OP to report some misdemeanour or other, and those who think reporting would be the grownup version of being a tattle-tale. I'm not sure if it's possible to teach someone as young as two about what's telling tales and what isn't.

It's probably a lot more possible to teach them that they shouldn't try to get one over on other kids by saying they'll tell on them. If they think the thing is bad enough to tell, then tell, but it's not nice to try and make someone scared that way. But from what the staff said, it doesn't sound like they tried to explain to the DD that telling isn't something you should use against someone to make them scared — it sounds like they just said not to tell mummy.

tbh I don't agree with the 'don't tell tales' brigade anyway. If DCs take issues to adults whether teachers or parents, the adults can decide whether there needs to be any follow-up action. 'Don't tell tales' often seems to be a line trotted out by adults who can't be bothered.

I would be unhappy with the way the nursery have handled this. Children should not be told to keep things from the adults in their life.
In effect, it is teaching a very young child that it is OK to keep secrets from their parent.