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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this is a serious error and the resolution doesn’t really cut it

438 replies

Myinterestingnewpath · 13/04/2023 08:01

Visited a well known chain restaurant, early in the week so it wasn’t busy, only about six tables tables taken. I was with my daughter, asked if I could have a table instead of a booth, as I have an assistance dog. My dog is a small/medium size, and was wearing his harness. I got asked if he was a guide dog, I said no an assistance dog. He then asked what that meant. I explained that the dog helps me with tasks that help me live my daily life. He then asked what exactly that meant. So I explained I have neurological damage after breaking my neck, and I can’t feel my fingers so drop things and the dog retrieves them. I also explained I have balance issues, so bending down without falling over is a problem. I then got asked if it was a guide dog again. I said no. He then said you can’t come in because it’s not a guide dog and you’re not blind!! I am not a confrontational person so I just said ok, we’ll just go the restaurant next door, (which is owned by the same group) as they always welcome me. The next day I rang head office and they admitted that what he did is unlawful, and they would do some staff training. Turning away a disabled person because of their equipment is a serious issue. Dogs are classed as auxiliary aids same as wheelchairs. I have been offered £20, I think they’ve got off lightly. What do mumsnetters think?

YABU-restaurants can choose who dines
YANBU-it’s discrimination

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Mangolist · 13/04/2023 21:11

I'm so sorry about the horrendous and rude responses on here OP. I have a hidden disability too and luckily can manage with very small almost imperceptible adjustments, but you clearly need your dog. I hope your life continues to move forward well

breakingintopieces · 13/04/2023 21:45

I don't think the OP should need to disclose what disability they have. But I do think a working dog should be able to prove its status as a trained working dog, ideally at a glance by wearing an official harness that can't be bought from the likes of Amazon. It's always obvious that a guide dog is a working dog as they all tend to be the same breed, and they all have a special harness - plus, of course, it's obvious from their behaviour.

It sounds like other types of working dogs can't be readily identified, and that's a problem, both for the owner and for businesses such as restaurants. I think this is the serious problem that needs to be addressed, not how this one waiter behaved.

Maybe there's a gap for a charity to come forward and take ownership of this issue.

ZombieKettle · 13/04/2023 21:55

Looneytune253 · 13/04/2023 20:51

@DotAndCarryOne2 but surely that means that anyone can take their dog as an 'assistance dog' without being properly trained. My child has autism and they love the dog. Does that mean we can call him an assistance dog and take home everywhere with us?

If your dog helps prevent meltdowns and helps to regulate their emotions and keep them safe then you could argue it's an assistance dog. (I'm a mum to a disabled child). There's a charity that provides training to disabled people to train their pet dogs into assistance dogs.

HecticHedgehog · 13/04/2023 23:23

Funnily enough I had to do some research on this a year or so ago. only dogs for the blind or deaf are legally classed as assistance dogs. For anything else it's a bit of a grey area. Would be interesting to see how a court would interpret it.

Yawningalldaylong · 14/04/2023 09:35

HecticHedgehog · 13/04/2023 23:23

Funnily enough I had to do some research on this a year or so ago. only dogs for the blind or deaf are legally classed as assistance dogs. For anything else it's a bit of a grey area. Would be interesting to see how a court would interpret it.

I find this really interesting. I'd really like to see the source of this, articles and definitions often don't differentiate between the type of assistance dog. Where in law does it define which assistance dogs the law covers?

Government papers describe assistance dogs as those 'trained in order to provide assistance to disabled people or those with certain medical conditions such as epilepsy' but I've not seen it state only a certain disability.

Redlocks30 · 14/04/2023 09:40

HecticHedgehog · 13/04/2023 23:23

Funnily enough I had to do some research on this a year or so ago. only dogs for the blind or deaf are legally classed as assistance dogs. For anything else it's a bit of a grey area. Would be interesting to see how a court would interpret it.

That’s interesting. Could someone with eg anxiety say their dog is an assistance dog and take it into a normally dog-free pub/restaurant on those grounds?

Is there specific training or licensing/certification needed to show this? Perhaps there should be.

SophieJo · 14/04/2023 09:45

ZeroWorshipHere · 13/04/2023 08:11

Was your dog wearing an assistance dog jacket?

Have you answered this question?

OhwhyOY · 14/04/2023 09:46

@Myinterestingnewpath I'm so sorry you feel like you shouldn't post on mumsnet any more and that you've had some horrendous responses from some people. I hope at least some people on here have been educated about different forms of disability and the impact discrimination has. My mum has a hidden disability that sometimes leaves her unable to walk, talk, or even think properly. She often has people question her bus pass, blue badge etc despite the fact that she can only walk a few steps and often needs a wheelchair. I don't know why people can't just mind their own business rather than always assuming the worst.

Zumzum · 14/04/2023 09:54

i think this thread is concrete proof of why a specific ,certified, country wide recognisable scheme is needed. Theres a good reason why the blue badge scheme is set up as it is, it's highly open to abuse and people are regularly fined for abusing their relatives/friends blue badges by using them for their own needs. Somebody taking advantage of a blue badge directly impacts on those needing to use their passes for essential use and its exactly the same for assistance dogs. The US in particular shows how quickly this can escalate, i think someone linked to the article about support pigs, peacocks and horses! It is easy to claim a dog is an assistance dog but this impacts on those likewise needing their dogs for essential purposes, and an ill-trained dog that is supposedly an official assistance dog will only make people less understanding & tolerant of those that do need their dogs for specific roles.

Thelnebriati · 14/04/2023 13:13

@Redlocks30 I posted a link upthread by the EHRC that answers this question.

Assistance dogs can be owner trained and there is no requirement for them to be registered or carry ID.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/assistance-dogs-a-guide-for-all-businesses.pdf

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/assistance-dogs-a-guide-for-all-businesses.pdf

Redlocks30 · 14/04/2023 13:46

Interestingly, that pamphlet doesn’t actually answer a lot of the questions put to it. All of the ‘what do I do of the dog does x/y/z?’ questions are basically answered with ‘Well, they won’t, as they are highly trained by their owners’. If there is no standardised system is in place, it’s open to individual interpretation.

Thelnebriati · 14/04/2023 14:03

Genuine assistance dogs are highly trained and won't cause an issue, and thats the answer.
If the dog causes and issue the business owner can ask the dog owner to leave.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 14/04/2023 17:31

Thelnebriati · 14/04/2023 14:03

Genuine assistance dogs are highly trained and won't cause an issue, and thats the answer.
If the dog causes and issue the business owner can ask the dog owner to leave.

The dog wasn’t causing a problem and the OP was still asked to leave. Where’s the answer to that ?

DotAndCarryOne2 · 14/04/2023 17:34

SophieJo · 14/04/2023 09:45

Have you answered this question?

Show quote history

He was wearing a harness, and it’s already been pointed out several times that assistance dogs can be home trained and certified, which the OP has said he is.

Exdonkeylover · 14/04/2023 17:49

Unless an assistance dog is trained by a known organisation or charity, it doesn't have to be recognised as an assistance dog.
Loads of people "Register" their dog online saying its a support dog. Usually emotional. I understand your dog is probably really needed by you, but there are rules around it and the restaurant only have to stick to those rules.

2ManyPjs · 14/04/2023 18:01

Can you imagine if the restaurant had turned away someone because of the colour of their skin? Or visibly of a certain religion? Everyone would be up in arms and heads would be rolling at head office. The attitude here seems to be there, there, dear. Nothing to worry about. Pipe down and be grateful for the voucher!

Tell me you're completely ignorant about the extent of race discrimination in this country without telling me etc etc etc. Utter bullshit using it as a comparison.

drpet49 · 14/04/2023 18:04

Exdonkeylover · 14/04/2023 17:49

Unless an assistance dog is trained by a known organisation or charity, it doesn't have to be recognised as an assistance dog.
Loads of people "Register" their dog online saying its a support dog. Usually emotional. I understand your dog is probably really needed by you, but there are rules around it and the restaurant only have to stick to those rules.

This.

wentworthinmate · 14/04/2023 18:23

What else do you want from this? Seems grabby to ask for more. They’ve addressed the issue, end of imo.

niugboo · 14/04/2023 18:25

No. She didn’t.

pollymere · 14/04/2023 18:29

I think you should have said yes, it's a guide dog. For some this is what they have been told is acceptable and would be very literal about it. "Guide Dogs Accepted" of course covers any sort of Assistance or Support Dog. I think you just caused confusion.

Hungryfrogs23 · 14/04/2023 18:30

It depends entirely on your priorities.
If you actually want to educate and facilitate positive change for disabled people, then you've achieved that. They have said they will be undergoing staff training to ensure it doesn't happen again.

If you want to milk the situation for financial gain, then by all means keep pushing. I honestly despair though. Surely a person making an error, being corrected on their error, and undergoing training to ensure they don't make the error again, should be the priority, not a free meal?!

They made a mistake, apologised, pit training in place and offered you compensation for the inconvenience. Isn't that enough?

staceyflack · 14/04/2023 19:02

I think they've given a shit service by showing discrimination... and responded poorly to their mistake, by being exceptionally stingey! Despite it being a mistake, the response makes me think they're not that bothered. Which means you're justified in taking the matter further. Sorry they grilled you, regarding your personal medical info, I would've found that very uncomfortable!

NippySweetie16 · 14/04/2023 19:39

Some interesting responses from people who appear to have little or no empathy or understanding about the impacts of discrimination. Everyday sexism would gave drawn a howl from the same people.

What happened to you is shocking and unlawful. As a minimum I would expect a formal apology and commitment to do better, with an invitation to return and experience that 'better'. I would write, not phone, and copy in your MP, don't let them off the hook.

aLittleWhiteHorse · 14/04/2023 20:12

Dear MINP, I am so sorry you had such a terrible, life-changing accident. Bravo on over-coming these circumstances to the best of your ability; that takes courage every day.

I am also sorry you felt obliged to detail how your disability impacts your life and I appreciate your patience in doing so.

I agree that the restaurant probably should have asked how much your meal was and reimbursed you for it. It would not have been unreasonable of you to suggest this when discussing it with them, had it occurred to you. These things usually become obvious after you’ve hung up, naturally and annoyingly. Now it has happened, I’d not waste any more time and energy on it. It was unfortunate and illegal and unkind, and I’d spend my money elsewhere going forward.

CrazyLadie · 14/04/2023 20:19

I got refused to use the disabled toilets once because I wasn't disabled enough for the guy cleaning them. He didn't actually said I couldnt go in but he was 'cleaning' (standing outside watching me) one of them, the other has a hoist and only people who needed a hoist could use it but 5 mins later he let a lady with a walking stick in. I went home and made a complaint, they checked the cameras and called back apologised and said they would do some training and no offer of any compansation.