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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think this is a serious error and the resolution doesn’t really cut it

438 replies

Myinterestingnewpath · 13/04/2023 08:01

Visited a well known chain restaurant, early in the week so it wasn’t busy, only about six tables tables taken. I was with my daughter, asked if I could have a table instead of a booth, as I have an assistance dog. My dog is a small/medium size, and was wearing his harness. I got asked if he was a guide dog, I said no an assistance dog. He then asked what that meant. I explained that the dog helps me with tasks that help me live my daily life. He then asked what exactly that meant. So I explained I have neurological damage after breaking my neck, and I can’t feel my fingers so drop things and the dog retrieves them. I also explained I have balance issues, so bending down without falling over is a problem. I then got asked if it was a guide dog again. I said no. He then said you can’t come in because it’s not a guide dog and you’re not blind!! I am not a confrontational person so I just said ok, we’ll just go the restaurant next door, (which is owned by the same group) as they always welcome me. The next day I rang head office and they admitted that what he did is unlawful, and they would do some staff training. Turning away a disabled person because of their equipment is a serious issue. Dogs are classed as auxiliary aids same as wheelchairs. I have been offered £20, I think they’ve got off lightly. What do mumsnetters think?

YABU-restaurants can choose who dines
YANBU-it’s discrimination

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Jonei · 13/04/2023 13:52

Dobby123456 · 13/04/2023 13:48

The badge isn't for the person, it's for the dog! For one thing, it les you know that the dog is working, do you don't distract it as people often do with pets.

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Not really. As people should know that a dog with harness or specialist mobility jacket on shouldn't be touched. Those things already tell you that. It shouldn't be that the owner has to get ID out to stop other people touching it. Just like you wouldnt touch some walks walking frame, or wheelchair, oxygen mask or whatever.

Jonei · 13/04/2023 13:52

CherryCokeFanatic · 13/04/2023 13:49

Are emotional support dogs allowed in restaurants does anyone know?

Yes. As it's an assistance animal.

MagicKittens · 13/04/2023 14:00

Jonei · 13/04/2023 13:23

Sounds like a fabulous dog.

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He is. But dogs have short working lives and he’ll need to retire in the next few years. He’s her second assistance dog that I know of , and I hope her next is already somewhere in the wings.

Yawningalldaylong · 13/04/2023 14:08

CherryCokeFanatic · 13/04/2023 13:49

Are emotional support dogs allowed in restaurants does anyone know?

It's a grey area.

Technically an 'Assistance Dog' requires specific training to carry out tasks to support their owner/team leader.

An 'Emotional Support Dog' doesn't require specific training, their presence is enough to support their owner. However may not be toilet trained or have behavioural training.

Then there are therapy dogs and the US definitions.

As there is no need to register and no need for official training/breeding, an owner can call their dog what they want and it's very hard for a business to argue without being told they are discriminatory.

Bamboux · 13/04/2023 14:08

Jonei · 13/04/2023 13:52

Yes. As it's an assistance animal.

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'Emotional support animals' aren't recognised as a thing in the UK.

In the UK emotional support animals do not have legal recognition in the way that assistance dogs do.

There is no register for emotional support dogs or assistance dogs in the UK, so it is not possible to register, validate or get an ADUK ID booklet for an emotional support dog.

Some websites claim that registering your emotional support dog with them (for a fee) will allow you the same rights as someone with an assistance dog by providing you with ID. There is no guarantee that this will increase your access rights.

^www.assistancedogs.org.uk/assistance-dog-information/^

Applying for an Assistance Dog - ADUK

Assistance Dogs UK is a coalition of assistance dog charities providing information to prospective and current assistance dog owners.

https://www.assistancedogs.org.uk/assistance-dog-information

Bamboux · 13/04/2023 14:14

SchoolTripDrama · 13/04/2023 13:21

@Bamboux Blatant ableism. Totally disregarding hidden disabilities. I have MS but I suppose people like you will just assume I'm 'helping myself' to disabled facilities! So to you, disabled toilets are only for "severely disabled" is that right? What about working, functioning adults who need space to empty their colostomy bags? Ffs

I also have fibromyalgia and I can tell you it's NOT self diagnosed AT ALL! I was diagnosed by Rheumatology and separate to my MS, I am in a LOT of pain daily. I certainly DO need disabled toilets.
Oh and I was awarded full PIP, a Motability car and a Blue Badge on the basis of fibromyalgia- I was diagnosed with MS after these were all awarded.

God your ableism is vile

You have full PIP, motability car and a blue badge.

I would have thought it was really obvious that you are not part of the category of people self-diagnosing themselves as disabled without any objective evidence and taking facilities and benefits intended for genuinely disabled people, like you.

Very obviously also, MS and using a colostomy bag are also genuine disabilities.

You are misrepresenting what I said completely (which i assume is why you didn't quote my post, as people would be able to see how badly you've distorted it).

There was absolutely no prejudice expressed against disabled people. The exact reverse in fact. I think it's awful that so many non disabled people are using facilities and taking advantage of help offered to actual disabled people.

I'd like you to retract the slur of calling me 'ableist' but I won't hold my breath.

Maverickess · 13/04/2023 14:15

And the fact that she was questioned as to her disability and why she needed the dog was also shocking,

"I got asked if he was a guide dog, I said no an assistance dog. He then asked what that meant. I explained that the dog helps me with tasks that help me live my daily life. He then asked what exactly that meant. So I explained I have neurological damage after breaking my neck, and I can’t feel my fingers so drop things and the dog retrieves them. I also explained I have balance issues, so bending down without falling over is a problem. I then got asked if it was a guide dog again. I said no."

I don't think she was though? The OP says that he asked if it was a guide dog, and when she said no an assistance dog, asked what that meant, she then offered an explanation of the dogs role and then further of her disability when asked again - she wasn't asked about her disability, she was asked about the status of the dog and offered the information about her disability and the tasks of the dog in response, when it would have been quite easy to say he's the same as a guide dog when going into restaurants.

"Is the dog a guide dog?"
"No, an assistance dog"
"What does that mean?"
"Assistance dogs are the same as guide dogs, but for people with other disabilities"

It's absolutely right that he didn't need to know the OPs disability or anything like that, but then he didn't ask (according to what OP typed) he asked what an assistance dog was, when she said he was one rather than a guide dog.

Jonei · 13/04/2023 14:15

Fair point Bamboux I suppose an emotional support dog is arguably an assistance dog, but, as you say, then they wouldn't be recognised in the UK under that name.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 14:34

Plexie · 13/04/2023 08:09

So the company has admitted the staff member acted incorrectly, said they would do staff training, and offered you £20. And you think they've got off lightly?

What do you think would be a commensurate response? Public flogging? Sack him? More compensation for you?

Given the shitstorm brought down on the heads of those who misgender, or act in ways which are racist, yes I do think they got off lightly. If you are customer facing you should be aware of the law, and the company has to take responsibility for that with appropriate training. Agreeing to train after the event isn’t good enough. In any other situation there would be a lot more than £20 forthcoming for a situation like this. Why should the disabled be any different ?

ATerrorofLeftovers · 13/04/2023 14:36

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 14:34

Given the shitstorm brought down on the heads of those who misgender, or act in ways which are racist, yes I do think they got off lightly. If you are customer facing you should be aware of the law, and the company has to take responsibility for that with appropriate training. Agreeing to train after the event isn’t good enough. In any other situation there would be a lot more than £20 forthcoming for a situation like this. Why should the disabled be any different ?

Show quote history

Disability is the least fashionable of the protected characteristics, unfortunately.

ZombieKettle · 13/04/2023 14:37

EHRC has an information booklet about legal duties around assistance dogs. Might be worth you keeping a copy with you in case this happens again. www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/assistance-dogs-a-guide-for-all-businesses.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj1l5Sy_Kb-AhUPXcAKHVTaD3AQFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Rhk3HQ4GPmv1Z2ITE5VZX

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 14:41

SchoolTripDrama · 13/04/2023 13:13

That sounds like you've shoved a special harness on your pet dog after you've trained him to do a couple things and then called him an assistance dog. You can’t do that!

Perhaps do a bit of research before you post ableist garbage.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 14:42

ATerrorofLeftovers · 13/04/2023 14:36

Disability is the least fashionable of the protected characteristics, unfortunately.

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Agree. And will be for as long as some of the attitudes on this thread prevail.

alloalloallo · 13/04/2023 14:50

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 14:42

Agree. And will be for as long as some of the attitudes on this thread prevail.

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Yep! I totally agree too.

I can’t even get DD’s college to keep to her reasonable adjustments yet they bang on and on about inclusion and diversity. They’re happy to spend their budget advertising how inclusive they are, but not when it comes to making adjustments to make the lives of their students with disabilities better.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 14:53

Jonei · 13/04/2023 13:07

People are dicks. They don't give a shit about others. They will take advantage if they can, and they do

Yes sadly disability isn't the only category people try and take advantage of.

But, sadly, it’s the one that seems to carry the least in the way of penalties. Employers routinely flout the law on reasonable adjustment for disabled employees, shops and businesses don’t provide wheelchair access, drivers park across dropped pavements meant for wheelchair access. Disabled people are attacked, abused and ridiculed and the police are reluctant to prosecute as hate crimes. And don’t get me started on some of the disgusting opinion expressed on social media about disability/sickness benefits.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 14:57

CurlyhairedAssassin · 13/04/2023 12:52

But this is a discussion forum, no, where things are DISCUSSED? We are not at work now and I wouldn't start asking these questions at my workplace because I'm not a dick and as I work in education I've had equality training etc etc. But this is a discussion forum. MN is full of threads explaining and asking for advice on their own and their child's disabilities and extra needs. You can learn a lot from others explaining how life is for them, and MN is great for that. But really, am I going to get thrown off MN for being discriminatory because I asked what kind of tasks OP might need her dog to do for her en route to a restaurant?

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Yes, if you’re questioning whether she actually needs that dog either en route to, or when in that restaurant. Because the OP knows her own disability and what her own needs are. The dog is there to assist with those, and it’s nobody else’s business but hers.

Jonei · 13/04/2023 15:01

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 14:53

But, sadly, it’s the one that seems to carry the least in the way of penalties. Employers routinely flout the law on reasonable adjustment for disabled employees, shops and businesses don’t provide wheelchair access, drivers park across dropped pavements meant for wheelchair access. Disabled people are attacked, abused and ridiculed and the police are reluctant to prosecute as hate crimes. And don’t get me started on some of the disgusting opinion expressed on social media about disability/sickness benefits.

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True.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 15:02

niugboo · 13/04/2023 11:44

She also states she trained him herself. Which is further proof is nonsense. She basically has a dog she’s labelled therapy. It’s nonsense and they were right to refuse.

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She’s allowed to. You really need to educate yourself in disability matters before you post crap like this.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 15:13

Zumzum · 13/04/2023 09:46

i am likewise confused about the growth of "assistance dogs" when the role of the dog is to pick something off the floor in a restaurant??as someone else said if you are taking the dog out on your own how do you pick up your dogs poo??? if you are walking and mobile how does this dog help with your balance...your problems suggest you wouldn't be able to go out without assistance? if you are with someone else can't they pick stuff off the floor when you go out?? is your dog a registered assistance dog?

Would you ask a blind person how they pick up their dogs’ poo ?

Tealsofa · 13/04/2023 15:19

Mummyoflittledragon · 13/04/2023 10:21

Both types of discrimination are the same under the 2010 Equality Act. I do understand that society sees racism as far more disturbing than disabelism, ableism or sex discrimination for example. This difference can be a big issue for a lot of disabled people and the disablism op experienced should not be minimised either.

As a disabled woman myself, casual ableism as well as casual disablism is very disturbing, frightening and can lead to me being physically injured. I can walk but do not use walking aids as they would be a hindrance. My disability rather like op’s is invisible.

I have a blue badge. Whenever I am out in public, I am constantly aware of just how vulnerable I am and how easily I could be knocked to the ground, which would be pretty catastrophic for me. I have chronic pain, fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue.

I was once discriminated against in an M&S changing room by a member of staff, who treated me like a child when I went to the disabled cubicle and humiliated me when I tried to explain I’m disabled. I was struggling to get a word in edge ways as she tried to usher me to a normal cubicle and berated me when I forcefully spoke over the top of her saying I am disabled.

I was with dd and she was about 7 at the time and we were both in tears. I haven’t been back to that shop since and she’s 14 now. It was an incredibly humiliating experience.

This isn’t my only experience. Eg I asked a young woman to keep their dog away from me as it was running around like a loon (big greyhound) and she screamed at me that I’m not as disabled as her mother (who owns the dog). Luckily I was next to a bush and could lean my whole body against it for support. Another time when I asked a man to help get someone’s dog away from me (the owner was over 100m away), he told me I should expect dogs to bounce around me and shouldn’t be walking where I was walking. I could go on…

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Thats fucking horrible @Mummyoflittledragon I'm so sorry you have had to deal with idiots

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 15:19

CurlyhairedAssassin · 13/04/2023 12:02

My dog is trained by myself, but he has to pass exams. I have years of experience in dog training, especially the retraining of rescue dogs. I have previously competed nationally in obedience competitions. I got this dog as a puppy and he knows his job and place when out in public places.

You see this is what I don't understand. You have had to do all the training yourself by the sound of it, ever since he was your average normal puppy who needs the usual house training and socialising and behaviour training and lead training etc etc. If you need an assistance dog so badly, how on earth did you manage a puppy on top of your own needs? Puppies are a pain in the butt for anybody. Someone who is registered disabled enough to need an assistance dog in the first place would find looking after a puppy even more difficult than someone without any assistance needs. It is why guide dog puppies live with a foster family first, so that the usual standard puppy training can be done even before the specialist training begins when they are a bit older. It is only when they are fully trained and useful that they go to live with a blind person and they do training as a pair.

I guess the person in the restaurant may have wondered why you needed the assistance dog if you had your daughter with you. The dog didn't need to be there to pick things up for you etc as your daughter was with you. So it's understandable to ask questions I think.

Do you think all disabled people are wheelchair or bed bound, or similar ? If not, what makes you think the OP as a disabled person is incapable of training a dog ? Training for a guide dog is entirely different to that of an assistance dog, as the assistance dogs’ owner will have more wide ranging and individual needs, so most of what the dog needs to learn is done on a one to one basis. And it’s not ‘understandable’ to ask questions. AT. ALL. Disabled people should not have to explain their disability ad nauseam to all and sundry. Just because they are not alone in the restaurant doesn’t mean the person with them understands their needs better than the dog, who is a constant, attuned companion.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 15:21

ShowUs · 13/04/2023 10:54

If you want to use a disabled parking space then you need to show your blue badge.

I think showing proof is much better than standing there and having to explain yourself, especially as so many disabilities are not obvious.

There are many times when you have to show proof eg I.D to buy alcohol.

I don’t think showing proof is offensive.

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Are you disabled ? Because if you were you would know why it’s offensive.

Tealsofa · 13/04/2023 15:29

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 15:21

Are you disabled ? Because if you were you would know why it’s offensive.

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Really?

Is it offensive to have to put a blue badge on your car?
Would it be offensive to have a badge to put on your assistant animal collar/harness?

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 15:29

Bamboux · 13/04/2023 10:24

Someone who would watch a person struggling to breathe and not help because they had no paperwork would be a sociopath, so it's a good thing you just invented that.

That's not really comparable to suggest that you carry round the paperwork that proves your dog is legally allowed to be in a place that other dogs aren't. It would have stopped this whole scenario from happening.

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It would also contravene the Equality Act 2010. As a disabled person I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve pulled into a disabled parking space, displaying a blue badge, and because I don’t look disabled behind the wheel, I’ve been immediately challenged by a self appointed busy body and asked why I’m parking there and what my disability is. They soon back down when my companion hops out and operates the wheelchair hoist in the back. I have a valid blue badge, which ‘proves’ I’m disabled, but that’s not enough for some people. You can produce as much paperwork as you want, there will always be some entitled twat demanding to know more. It’s a matter of respect. And disabled people come very low on the scale of respect if some of the shite posted on here is anything to go by.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 13/04/2023 15:35

Tealsofa · 13/04/2023 15:29

Really?

Is it offensive to have to put a blue badge on your car?
Would it be offensive to have a badge to put on your assistant animal collar/harness?

Show quote history

The blue badge is entirely different as it entitles you to a specific parking advantage. And if you have a look at my post upthread it explains why even that’s not enough for some people. You wouldn’t expect a badge on a guide dog because you can see the person is blind. Yet you expect a disabled person to display one on an assistance dog, because you can’t necessarily see the disability. So unless someone is obviously disabled they’re not to be trusted - is that what you’re saying ? There are laws in place for the protection of the disabled. The waiter in question was ignorant of them. That’s not the OP’s fault and it’s not down to disabled people to prove they are disabled to everyone who asks.