To be annoyed that private school parents are demonised?

[Imsorryyoufeelthatway]

Starting this threat to vent and as an antidote to the Closing all private schools would benefit state schools thread. In short, I'm a bit fed up with private school parents being bashed for buying a better education for their children, while parents who 'don't believe in private education' and spend a fortune on homes/second homes/rental properties in catchment areas for 'good' state schools then another fortune on tutors seem to get off scot free.

I'm also fed up with private school parents all being lumped in the same category. We're not all selfish, mega-wealthy, Bullingdon Club (or female equivalent, if there was one...) alumni; many of us are ordinary people (I'm a working class lass from a council estate whose parents worked as cleaners and in warehouses) who've worked bloody hard to be able to afford a better start in life for our children than we had. We were the first people in our families to go to university (on full grants, when they existed), the first to have careers not just jobs, and the first to own our own homes. No-one has ever handed us a penny – my DH got the train to university with £4.50 in his pocket and had to get a job straight away to buy food. No bank account, no trust fund, no-one paying his rent. We've managed to achieve social mobility against the odds, yet we're not allowed to celebrate this because we've chosen to invest in our children's future rather than over-priced property in 'good' state school catchment areas.

Yes, we all know that private schools are a major cause of inequality. Parents like us have literally lived and breathed that inequality our whole lives and we'd do anything to prevent our children having to do the same. We think that all children should have access to high quality education in safe, inspirational environments where they can achieve their potential, not just ours. But most state schools in the UK just cannot meet this requirement. We also know that if catchment areas for state schools were mixed-up, and the schools in deprived areas had an influx of children from more affluent areas and vice versa, then this would likely make things more equal over time. But our children are not part of a social experiment. In short, if those of us who had difficult starts in life and went to terrible schools choose to work our arses off so our children don't have to, can't we be given some credit?

So please, the next time you're tempted to lump a private school parents into the same category and give them a bashing, take a moment to consider their reasons and background. Rant over.

I agree that there's a lot of hypocrisy in this debate.

I came from a similar background to you op, and when we moved, we agreed that if we couldn't get a house near good schools, we would go private.

I will always vote in favour of improving state education and in providing more opportunities for the poorest, but I know firsthand what it's like to go to a bad school.

Completely agree OP. DS has SEN and in a state school he’d get little help but in private school he has a 1:1 about 30% of the time. I feel uncomfortable about private school but I’ve done the right thing for my child and that’s my responsibility as a parent.

I’m a governor at a local state school and volunteer to listen to children reading in another. I feel like these voluntary activities actually make a difference rather than just ranting about it. Schools round me are crying out for decent governors.

@Dobby123456

Exactly.

Please don’t argue that sending your children to private school is altruistic by saving the tax payer.

@Twilightstarbright

If you are a goveerner also try and introduce new ways of reading. In every school there will be dc who don't get phonics and are locked out of reading because of that

"Keir Starmer's parents got him into private school through a bursary"

This isn't true. The school he attended became a private school subsequent to his enrollment. Children who had enrolled prior to this status change had their fees paid as a bursary by default. His parents did not choose to send him to a fee paying school nor seek a bursary to do so.

You lost any argument you were trying to build when you mentioned "working extremely hard to afford..." Literally thousands of parents work extremely hard but still will never even be able to dream of sending their children to private schools.

We've managed to achieve social mobility against the odds, yet we're not allowed to celebrate this because we've chosen to invest in our children's future rather than over-priced property in 'good' state school catchment areas.

I don’t quite understand this comment. Are you saying you live in an undesirable area because it’s cheaper and you’ve chosen to funnel your money into private school fees?

Has that caused any issues in terms of much wealthier families looking down on you/your children due to where you live? Because I’m sure that’s an issue when it comes to families who can easily afford big houses and school fees, vs. those who have to scrimp and save.

Ultimately, I think people should be free to spend their money how they want and send their kids to private school if they want. But don’t expect people to “celebrate your social mobility” (your words) because you’ve managed to improve on your working class roots. There’s nothing terribly unusual about that.

I was all set to agree with you until you stared to explain how you are so very worthy of private school and not at all like the other people.

Inverse-snobbery is just as bad as regular snobbery IMO.

Personally I don’t really see a difference between paying for private school and paying for tutoring. And where would you draw the line?

It's total bollocks.

Private school kids being forced in to the state system would be hideous for all. Already under resourced schools are over full classes put under extra strain.

I think mumsnet overestimates the wealth and influence of the average private school parent.

I’m a state school teacher. I went to a state school. Where we lived there was one private option nearby and my parents’ friend’s daughter went and had a terrible time (nothing terrible just didn’t have great friends and didn’t do well at all academically) whereas I did well. So I did grow up with a view that private does not equal better.

I could technically afford private ed for my kids now but would never. Luckily for us they are both in good schools through no effort of our own (ie we didn’t select the area for the school).

I went to Oxford, I definitely could have entered a higher earning profession, but I actively wanted to be working in state education. I would never work in a private school.

I suspect that what you’re feeling when you feel “annoyance at being demonised” is simply “guilt” 🙂

I don't demonise parents that choose private education but my own children all excelled at state schools as did their peers, and all ended up at Russel group universities.

Ultimately if you value education and put time and effort into your children they will achieve with the tools they are given.

Private school success isn't really an accurate measure because they are starting from the advantage of only educating children with invested parents.
You'd only ever know how good they actually are by seeing how they fared with a comprehensive range of pupils.

I do know private school kids whose parents have never read to them or taken them anywhere of any cultural value but think their kids are still having a more privileged start, I don't agree with this because I think education goes beyond exam grades and jumping through hoops in a prescribed way and is about developing rounded people and nurturing gifts and talents whatever they may be.

Absolutely agree OP. The world isn’t fair and it’s shit for lots of people but private school is only one small example of that. My pet peeve is smug middle class people pretending to be all left wing and anti-private school while spending an obscene amount of money on a bog standard house because it gets their kids into a good state school without any pesky poor people in it. They’re no different to private school parents in terms of using their financial privilege to buy their children a better education but genuinely seem to see themselves as morally superior 🙄 If anything they’re worse because they contribute to gentrifying communities and driving people out of their areas.

It’s wildly unfair to single out parents who pay for private school as the cause of inequality in our society, which people often seem to imply.

Personally I would vote tomorrow to ban private schools, however I’m also considering sending my kids to one. That probably seems like a ridiculous and hypocritical position to take (see flak received by Diane Abbott) but the system is what it is and I have to work within that system. Sending my children to the shit state school near us would disadvantage them but change nothing about the wider system. I’m sorry but I’m not prepared to sacrifice my children’s best interests for my principles when living by those principles would do nothing to change the system.

I’m also not really convinced that banning private schools would achieve much anyway. As people on the other thread say, all that would happen is people would buy expensive houses by the good schools and create ‘state private’ schools by stealth. Those schools would get extra financial support from parents which poorer parents at the other state school down the road can’t afford to give so the school experience ends up wildly different and the cycle of inequality continues.

I've no kids myself, so no skin in the game, but I completely agree with the OP. I don't know how anyone could criticise parents who do their very best to give their children a good education, often making many sacrifices to do so.

Cry more

Criticism does not equal demonisation

Pointing out that individuals actions lead to (individually very small) consequences is not demonisation.

Pointing out that some of the justifications of private schools are absolute bullshit that are people trying to justify their choices is not demonisation.

If you can afford private school fees you are in a privileged position.

By the way the argument that private schools should be charities because they give scholorships and bursuries is offensive. “Rescuing” children from state education should not be a charitable activity.

I’m a teacher in the state sector.

As a society, we should be aiming for consistency across all schools- at the moment, we don’t have that even vaguely. Schools are mirrors of the community they are in - areas of extreme deprivation, by and large, have schools that have to work much harder to get good outcomes for their children. Some do - we should be looking at what those schools do and replicating it.

Private schools, grammar schools, selective schools and, to an extent, schools in very exclusive post codes don’t do anything special - they are carried by the engaged parents in the community (and in the case of selective schools, by higher than average academically attaining on entry cohorts)

I don’t “demonise” any parent for their choice, but I believe to my core that the existence of private, grammar and selectives perpetuates a system of being able to buy a better experience and that academic achievement is the only valuable outcome. I don’t think that’s fair and I know that it limits outcomes for the most vulnerable in society.

Schools reflect the inequality in our country - they could be a huge force towards addressing the disadvantage gap but our current system doesn’t allow it.

I think so many are missing the point that a large percentage of kids in private schools now are SEN. Around us it's a 5 year CAMHS wait, so a lot of the kids are un diagnosed but 'known', iyswim. Those kids would get NO provision in the state system without a statement (which they can't currently get). However in private school, it's small class sizes and extra help in those areas that need it. These kids would sink in state school or end up not attending (ASD overload in classes that are too big, too noisy, too many kids in the school etc for one example). So parents (many of whom are nurses, admin in local government, teachers) sacrifice foreign holidays, hell, they sacrifice British holidays too, to give their kids the help that they need and deserve - just so those kids can be equal with other kids and access a decent education. The private school bashing on here seems to assume all kids are at Eton or similar and that is just not true!

I think it’s the “we work hard and make sacrifices” which aggravates. It implies those who can’t send their children to private schools don’t work hard, don’t make sacrifices, don’t care and that’s simply not true.

You don't need to justify your choices, everyone wants what's best for their children.

Should parents who use faith schools, grammar school, private tutors, extracurricular activities be demonised? Or those who can live in expensive catchment areas?

What about families with one SAHP who can dedicate more time to their children, or children who attend nursery from a young age and get started early?

Maybe bright parents shouldn't be allowed to teach their children outside of school either?

So many factors mean everyone gets a different start in life, it would take an awful lot more than banning independent schooling to level the playing field.

I am not arguing anything, I am stating what I researched and what that research said. I did not use the word altruistic at all either, you did. I said that stopping charitable status will potentially have a negative impact on the UK taxpayer. Just look on line and you'll see that is the case.

Thank God for the private sector : at least it gave my daughter an option.

I can’t speak for England, but here is Wales there absolutely is provision for SEN without a statement or diagnosis. All that is required is that the school recognises a need. In my class I have 2 children with undiagnosed SEN and they have extra provision - sometimes even a 1-1 if needed.

What sort of private school do your children go to, and do they need to pass an exam to get there?

I don't like private schools but I certainly don't blame the parents for choosing to send their children to them. I think every single child deserves a decent education regardless of their parents background. However, I'm not naive and that won't happen. Closing private schools would do nothing other than drive up prices in certain areas so we'd still have a system of good vs bad schools but only the wealthier parents can afford to live in the catchment areas for the better schools. These schools would then likely receive more funding through PTAs because the parents can afford to contribute to more fundraisers than the schools in more impoverished areas.

I also think it is too simplistic to just say well I can afford this because I worked hard. Plenty of parents work extremely hard and can't afford private schools. We all have different academic abilities so intelligence often plays a part, as does mental health - I worked incredibly hard in school, got extremely good grades, I had a mental breakdown in college which led to me dropping out and meant my life was derailed. I wasn't lazy - I was ill. I am now working incredibly hard to get into university as a mature student but that is harder to do as I now have children and a job as well. Then there are family dynamics such as the school leavers who's parents are relying on them to contribute to finances, or are young carers etc. You have done well for yourself, and nobody is saying you haven't worked for it, but it is still not something that everyone is able to do.