Those of you who voted for Brexit when is it going to get better and how?

[N0addedsalt]

I didn’t and didn’t see any benefits. Tried to refocus anger about the lies during the campaign to resignation and acceptance. Was ready to try and embrace/ focus on positives and move forward but still really can’t see any. Now just getting increasingly worried and also fearful.

Hit me with all the benefits and when we’re going to see them impacting our lives.

Maybe but I think covid and the Ukraine war have muddied the waters.

I absolutely agree that the indicators are already there. The analysis of where things are now and the forecasts of where we're headed make pretty grim reading. And people are already feeling the pain.

I just it will take a generation or so before politicians will actually feel able to openly attribute our problems to Brexit, and to propose that we should do something about this. I don't understand why so few of them are willing to say it as it is right now, but there appears to be some sort of taboo amongst current politicians, both remainers and leavers, that means that they are scared of blaming anything negative on Brexit. Even though the government's own figures clearly highlight the negative impact that Brexit is having. It's very strange, but I think it will take time to work its way through.

A while, but they will see it eventually. Some Leave voters whose sectors were immediately hit realised already. For many the impact was less direct. But there is definitely a growing realisation. Brexit polls now are already very different to 4 years ago. Some will never see and some will just not want to admit they were wrong.

Proposals to tinker around the edges of the shrivelling pie when you've turned the oven off and left it there to rot are so disingenuous, it's disgusting. The elephant in the room grows larger by the day and it's becoming absurd to even hear any of their speeches while they ignore it squirting water all over their heads and stand there soaked from head to toe trying to convince us that they are worthy of a vote.

Some will never see and some will just not want to admit they were wrong.

Yes, but in time, they will die out too!

A while, but they will see it eventually. Some Leave voters whose sectors were immediately hit realised already. For many the impact was less direct. But there is definitely a growing realisation. Brexit polls now are already very different to 4 years ago. Some will never see and some will just not want to admit they were wrong.

By the time they catch up the damage done may be so severe that there is little propect of much recovery for decades even if the right steps are taken. The economic scarring from this is huge already. There is sufficient public support already to join the SM and CU, in fact there was never majority support for leaving these at any point in time. So why do we not have any politicians capable of being leaders and stating that this is what they will do? It's pathetic beyond words.

I think they're scared @WhereHasTheSunshineGone.

We need someone with a bit of courage, and vision. Sadly, we don't seem to have anyone.

I posted some stuff on the effect on the labour market in my first post.

I didn't get any sensible responses. I got one along the lines of "this is tragic" which isn't exactly the start of a sensible debate and didn't convince me of anything.

Other people spent some time putting some more detailed posts together on the same issues, labour market rebalancing and the effect of wage suppression by increases in the labour pool as a result of FOM. None of these seemed to get any sensible responses either, I agreed with what the posters were saying, it makes simple economic sense.

I suppose I could go on trying debating it, but it would be the triumph of hope over experience.

I don't understand why so few of them are willing to say it as it is right now, but there appears to be some sort of taboo amongst current politicians, both remainers and leavers, that means that they are scared of blaming anything negative on Brexit. Even though the government's own figures clearly highlight the negative impact that Brexit is having.

The entire lot from both parties need kicking out. All of them. We need some competent people.

I think they're scared @WhereHasTheSunshineGone.

We need someone with a bit of courage, and vision. Sadly, we don't seem to have anyone.

Agreed. They are all a disgrace. They are well aware of what's happening and that it won't get any better unless they rejoin the SM and CU. They are self-interested cowards. All of them.

The EU has made it clear it doesn't want a UK in the CU and SM, they don't want to have to make a series of never ending disruptive deals with the UK, as they got with Switzerland.

SM means FOM, i don't think the UK public want that.

Its certainly not cakeism because paying in to be in Horizon Erasmus etc is what many countries not in the EU do.

Possibly the only other option is EFTA, with a form of FOM that has a trigger to stop it.

I think to many on the right & for brexitiers generally, having a UK with a wrecked economy is a price worth paying.

^100% this.

Starmer/Labour aren't leading in the polls because they are seen as better than the Tories but because they are not the Tories.

That could be a huge problem if the Tories re invent themselves, time is tight but i could see Sunak suddenly embracing the SM, even re join, a Bruges style speech about its huge economic advantages, quoting Thatcher and a supportive press backing him.

Leaving Labour where?

It is pathetic I agree. Candidly I think areas of the country will reach unimagined levels of poverty by the time action is taken. People seem to have no concept of what will happened to rural areas when the CAP subsidies end in 2024.

However for the moment there is still too much support for, and too much stigma associated with undoing the will of the people, for our pusillanimous politicians to do anything but bleat the mantra.

The shift within the populace may even take politicians by surprise.

How long can they campaign for growth while ignoring one very obvious way to increase GDP?

The EU has made it clear it doesn't want a UK in the CU and SM, they don't want to have to make a series of never ending disruptive deals with the UK, as they got with Switzerland.

No Switzerland is different. If we are in the SM and CU the agreements are clear and don't require constant negotiation.

SM means FOM, i don't think the UK public want that.

The majority do.

Its certainly not cakeism because paying in to be in Horizon Erasmus etc is what many countries not in the EU do.

Yet our Government in all of its wisdom declined to do so because.... answers on a postcard.

Possibly the only other option is EFTA, with a form of FOM that has a trigger to stop it.

There were FOM controls even as an EU member. The British Government deciding not to apply them was entirely on them. See also deciding not to bother claiming back NHS expenses for EU citizens here from their respective Governments. These protections always existed. FOM is a good thing. During the last 15 years of our membership (can't find figures earlier than that) more British people emmigrated than from any other EU country. The irony...

I think to many on the right & for brexitiers generally, having a UK with a wrecked economy is a price worth paying.

And that's fine. But if we're going to have all of our futures trashed by this minority then the answer is a Brexit tax. Anybody who objects to rejoining the SM and CU and thinks being poorer is a price worth paying can log onto the HMRC website and sign up. The £50bn cost per year of that will be split equally between them and the redistributed to the rest of us. If less than 50% of adults on the electoral register sign up to pay the tax, then we can take their rhetoric about how it's worth being poorer as just that. What they mean is they want everyone else to be poorer, not them personally take responsibility for their decision and cough up for it. In which case they should be ignored and we instead join the SM and CU as most people want.

The entire problem here has been rights with no responsibilities, both the populace and the politicians.

You want this? Fine, you pay for it then.

You are cowards and won't do what's obvious to fix this mess? Shouldn't be in office.

You want to vote? Hell yes you should have to demonstrate an ability to cast a vote in a rational way first.

Frankly, I would vote for him if he provided to rejoin the single market. And I have never voted Tory in my life!

I don't think he will, though. He was a Brexiteer from the start.

I reckon the Tories will be happy enough to hand over a tanking economy to Labour at the end of this term, as they know there is no easy way out of it.

"Starmer/Labour aren't leading in the polls because they are seen as better than the Tories but because they are not the Tories."

If this is true then why is this? All the evidence of daily life around us is showing that in the last 13 years the quality of life, certainly for ordinary people, in almost all ways has deteriorated because of Tory policy. The Labour Party have a clear agenda that spells out how they would improve life for us ordinary folk. Where are they going wrong if people don't know this?

Perhaps you are right and people think 'anything but Tory'.

The EU have made it clear the door is open. Switzerland is not in the SM, it has access to it in a series of complicated bilateral deals that will never be repeated as way too much hassle for the EU and not even very satisfactory to Switzerland (no SM access for finance for example).

EFTA is an option, although extremely unpopular with the EFTA states who don’t want the U.K. pushing them around.

Cakeism in the sense that we can have Horizon for money but not Erasmus, or other cherry pick options for which the SM is required.

A wrecked economy is only a price worth paying if you can pay to eat and heat. If you can’t - no ideology is worth that.

Sunak is definitely a committed Brexiter - he’s one of the ultra rich hard right who will never be impacted by it due to their wealth.

I don't think the Labour Party have managed to convey any sense of hope for the future, or a clear vision for the country moving forward. Maybe it is because they know that the economy is tanking and that things are going to get worse, not better. But I don't think many people see much positive reason for voting Labour at the moment. They just know that the Tories are not delivering for them.

Agreed - the wealthy minority are huge beneficiaries of Brexit which is why the newspaper owners pushed Brexit so hard. If I were in power the first thing I'd do is ban anyone from owning a UK newspaper unless they were domiciled and paying full tax in the UK.
When did the EU say they didn't want us in the SM and CU?

At the Labour conference, Starmer mentioned two policies that almost everyone can get behind - taking rail companies back into state ownership when their franchises expire, and starting a home-grown green/renewables national energy company. We need more of this from Labour, and less of the spineless pandering to trans activists and racists.

If this is true then why is this? All the evidence of daily life around us is showing that in the last 13 years the quality of life, certainly for ordinary people, in almost all ways has deteriorated because of Tory policy. The Labour Party have a clear agenda that spells out how they would improve life for us ordinary folk. Where are they going wrong if people don't know this?

Part of the problem is that they won't be clear on tax. People are paying the highest tax burden in 70 years already, thanks Tories. Many simply can't afford to pay more and are worried Labour will make it worse (I live in a Blue Wall seat so have heard this a lot). People even here who have voted Conservative forever hate them now, find them disgusting, will never forgive Brexit and all the corruption.

But they are also worried they'll raise tax even further on higher earners on PAYE who've been hammered over and over again for a decade now and can't afford anymore. Or that they'll increase inheritance taxes so they can't even help their children, either. A commitment from Labour that any additional taxes would be derived from the super rich and from companies, not people earning £50-£150k and living in normal houses, would go a long, long way to them gaining much of the blue wall. These aren't rich people, they are people living in expensive areas with high outgoings who are really struggling now.

People are also very unhappy about the disincentives in the tax system at £50k and £100k earnings that are damaging productivity and based on speeches by Rachel Reeves - and indeed her recent interview with Mumsnet convinced me that people are correct about this - she has no intention to address this. This is a big factor in people a) not trusting them, and b) not believing they are economically competent enough to do what will be effective rather tham what is good for optics, when removing these bottlenecks would generate more tax revenue anyway.

Same issue as with Brexit: focus on optics over substance, so people don't trust them. If they can put forward policies demonstrating economic competence that will sort out the tax system and the SM and CU then they would win most of the blue wall I think. But they don't have the foresight or vision to do what needs to be done.

Why would they lie? No idea, but there's nowt queer as folk. I've previously been scolded for assuming a poster was a Tory supporter. The poster most definitely is a Tory supporter as they're standing as a Tory Councillor.

I don't know what you mean by Are yes you too.

How long can they campaign for growth while ignoring one very obvious way to increase GDP?

Exactly! The elephant is getting so large it will crush them all soon (I hope).

And the tax thing is the same. Even the Guardian recognises that it's harming productivity at every level of earnings:

amp.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/13/full-time-part-time-work-no-longer-pays-uk-economy

Surely if we want more tax revenue we need to fix this, with people earning £50k with children paying an effective tax rate of 85% with child benefit withdrawal factored in. And people earning £100k paying an effective rate of over 100% if they have children in childcare! I mean, nobody is going to work more to have a lower net income. Is it good for the economy to penalise our most productive workers so heavily they cut their hours as it's just not worth it, while the super rich pay 20% or less? No wonder we have no productivity growth.

But Labour won't address is because they don't want to be seen to be doing anything for the "better off" even if it benefits everyone. And the Conservatives won't because they only care about the super rich. So people don't feel they can trust either, because neither will implement evidence-based policies in the public interest.

I think we need a complete overhaul of our political system with funding of political parties paid from tax revenue and limited (the cost would be a drop in the ocean compared to the economic damage caused by the current system with both parties captured by vested interested) and much stricter rules on lobbying. Politicians don't seem to grasp that their job is to represent all of their constituents' best interests, not just the people in their party membership. They are all in breach of their legal responsibilities as MPs and representing minority interests, not the population at large. And none of them have the backbone or vision to make the changes needed:

Reform of the tax system
A proper industrial strategy
Rejoin SM and CU
Long-term plan on energy and food security
Huge investment in education
Total reform of NHS model

Etc.

There seems to be conflicting info on EU stance so I googled

The door is open for Britain to rejoin the EU“any time”, Michel Barnier said on Wednesday - before warning the UK not to tear up Brussels regulations after Brexit.
Mr Barnier, the former Brexit negotiator, said diverging too far from EU rules now would make it more difficult for Britain to rejoin the bloc in future.
“The door to the EU side will remain open any time for you,” he said. “Though everybody knows the conditions.”

It’s more open than I thought.

He sees it as lose lose

“Brexit is a failure for the EU,” he said at an event at the UK In a Changing Europe think tank in London. “There is no advantage for anybody. Brexit is a lose-lose game.”

I’m not sure about the euro though.

Those conditions would be accepting the four freedoms of the Single Market, which include freedom of movement. Joining the EU is a lengthy process that also requires candidate countries to commit to one day joining the euro.

If they are open to rejoining I don’t see why not to SM / CU

Where have people seen statements on this? Can they link?