Those of you who voted for Brexit when is it going to get better and how?

[N0addedsalt]

I didn’t and didn’t see any benefits. Tried to refocus anger about the lies during the campaign to resignation and acceptance. Was ready to try and embrace/ focus on positives and move forward but still really can’t see any. Now just getting increasingly worried and also fearful.

Hit me with all the benefits and when we’re going to see them impacting our lives.

Your posts.

I’ve asked for a quote for what you mean when you say

‘Talk Leave but claim to have voted remain’

What do you actually mean?

Without the typical carry on can either of you quote a post you think does this?

Out of interest, @MarshaBradyo, why did you vote remain, and do you still feel that that was the right choice?

Sounds to me very much like the "we want democracy but only the type of democracy that gives the answers we want" to me.

Brexit withstood quite a few tests in terms of voting. The intial election of Cameron on the basis of offering the referendum, the referendum itself, Theresa Mays election and finally Boris Johnsons election by a landslide.

Political analysts talk about the "democratic deficit" that lead to Brexit, namely the lack of referendums on the Maarstricht treaty and the Lisbon treaty.

Maybe if the government had offered referendums on these like other EU countries then we may have voted yes, or no or yes based on modification, which would have stopped the Brexit referendum in its tracks.

@MarshaBradyo

If Brexit fans claiming to be a Remainer then making comments which make their true position clear isn't a thing then nobody will recognise it and all will dismiss it as nonsense, and there's no need to get in a tizz about it.

I posted this below:

I do still want closer ties, would have welcomed an opportunity to vote on change this GE and would vote remain again

I still prefer a better discussion. What are the impacts of a shifting power from G7 to BRICS as is coming our way, what will climate change mean for borders

I would love to elevate the discussion, I’d probably still go with remain but those things have entered my mind more than they did in 2016.

In 2016 I was as remain as a stick of rock, in a sector that largely voted remain and a city / area that did too. I thought togetherness was a virtue and still do.

I was interested in what a pp said on changing trade, I’m not saying I will agree, I would like the opportunity to hear it without the childish stuff. I can handle the complex side of it, I feel I’m lacking the full insight on where we’re headed. Others might have good views.

We have no history of consultative democracy in this country with a handful of exceptions spaced out so far in time that they are meaningless.

What this means is that the general public are not used to single issue referendums and that they don't have the maturity as an electorate in these types of votes not to have a significant proportion of that electorate being fooled by campaign promises that they can't actually hold anyone accountable for because this was not an election of representatives to an assembly.

The brexiteers knew this and also knew that they could get the promise of a referendum on a conservative manifesto as many of the more pro-EU conservatives were foolish enough to believe that the British public would be more rational and less susceptible to modern disinformation campaigns than they were because they had no idea who they were dealing with.

What I am hoping is that there are at least some people who have realised that referendums are very difficult to run effectively and you need an active electorate that are regularly consulted in referendums at local and national level to be able to use them as a tool for effective and stable government (e.g. Switzerland - even then they throw up difficult results every now and then). People who are campaigning in referendums have very little skin in the game compared to any assembly-type elections and so they can promise the earth, lie and cheat with very little actual consequence if the result they want gets delivered.

Sounds to me very much like the "we want democracy but only the type of democracy that gives the answers we want" to me.

Not at all. I absolutely despair of this Tory government and I am extremely unhappy with many of the decisions that they have implemented over the last 13 years, but I accept that the electorate voted them in and that we are therefore stuck with them until people choose to vote them out. I might not like it, but that is the nature of our parliamentary democracy.

The referendum was different. There was no constitutional need for it, and it was incredibly foolish to try to reduce such a complex issue to a simple, binary question. It should never have happened.

Ah, are those of us who are not vehemently anti-leave being accused of not being bonafide remainers now?

I'll tell you why I voted to remain. My life is going pretty well. It served me for things to keep going as they were. I valued a European identity and I had an eye on retiring somewhere warm. I think the economic argument to remain was strong.

However, I had sympathy for the libertarian argument to leave. I also think leaving provided an opportunity to hold the government to account in a way which was difficult when they hid behind the skirt of eu rules. In particular, for a local example, I had seen the government refuse to bail out a nearby industrial plant that had hit the rocks and watched it cite wooly eu rules as it sank. Once it had gone it became clear they had misrepresented the eu position. They simply didn't want to save the company but found better optics blaming someone else.

But I still voted remain because that's how I stacked up the gains and losses. But I don't feel compelled to vilify those who made a different decision.

@MarshaBradyo thing is Marsha, I'm very much a remainer but can perfectly well see there are a few benefits - but the wage thing in very particular industries is one of very few as far as I can see. And HGV drivers and warehouse workers getting a few quid an hour more (due to being unable to recruit) or builders charging what they feel like is not exactly benefitting most nurses, teachers, office workers, etc - all though now get higher prices and poorer levels of service and standards. My biggest issue is it has cost £450 billion for very little gain and we have handed over much of our better international business to EU competitors on a plate. It is as Bob Geldof said far better to be on the inside spitting out, than the outside spitting in- we could have had huge amounts of influence, indeed we did till Cameron and co came in. Plenty of jo public think national service is a good thing, same with hanging and why I think referendums are a very poor idea.

Your post was a convoluted ramble on, among other things, the contents of verdant’s head and musings about anger.

If you don’t know what: “Talk Leave but claim to have voted Remain” means I cba to help. I would say it’s self-evident, but if it’s not, tough.

If you think I’m trawling through posts to find an example you’re mistaken - if you’re interested, do your own homework.

If you want to call me @verdantverdure liars, that’s absolutely fine. I posted for a long time on an politics discussion forum and the phenomenon was plain.

It’s all part of the general political trend whereby people are happy to support causes and regimes until they are discredited at which point they deny ever having been supporters.

Political campaigners always tell a mix of truth and lies. And the job of the opposition is to discredit those lies and push their own version of the truth. And the group that sways most of the electorate wins. It's the way democracy has always worked, and how else could it ? Otherwise you would require some "arbiter of the truth" other than the general public, the democratic referee.

Re the promise of the referendum, for me it passed the test of democracy. It may have been a huge and difficult question to ask, but the public wanted it and the right to ask it shouldn't be determined by some overarching person who decides the public is too stupid to answer the question. UKIP and other parties campaigned for years, maybe decades to ask the question. Whether you respect them or not the difficulty of that process should not be underestimated.

I think all the major parties (including the Lib Dems and Nick Clegg) at some point suggested a referendum on the question of Europe. This wasn't something that happened overnight at the click of one persons fingers. It happened after years, decades, of debate, promises and lies regarding the holding of a referendum, and finally happened when the desire of the public got great enough to make it happen. So if the public wants to ask the question, who is it for me you or anyone else to say that they shouldn't be allowed to ask it - to me to say no is fundamentally undemocratic.

I don’t think it exists so no I can’t find it.

I still don’t know what you mean unless you quote an example.

As for Verdant well they’ve tried that line on my posts so it confirms even more firmly they have no idea and it’s mostly just imagined.

MarshaBradyo. You'll be waiting a while for that I'm sure.

So if the public wants to ask the question, who is it for me you or anyone else to say that they shouldn't be allowed to ask it - to me to say no is fundamentally undemocratic.

What was the specific evidence that the public - ie a majority of the public- wanted a referendum?

This is not my problem.

Ok just be wrong then fine by me.

This is not my problem.

Bless.

Yeah completely wrong. Communist and Nazi supporters who tried to downplay or deny ever having been such once the regimes were discredited, are entirely imagined.

Rats never try to jump a sinking ship.

If anyone is up for intelligent debate on the benefits of Brexit let me know. At the moment we are stuck on pics or it didn’t happen.

David Camerons election in 2015.

Before you say, that wasn't a majority share of the vote, no it wasn't. That's not how we choose to elect our governments. If we want to choose to elect governments on over 50% of the vote share we would need to campaign to change our system (in fact we did have a referendum on system change, but chose not to).

You can clear it up quite easily..

It’s rife on the politics boards in your mind. So quote, we might agree with you who knows.

Although going by Verdant who claims to know more on how I voted than I do I’d say you both are imagining similar from other posters

As for intelligent debate I think you both went down that you’re not a true remainer rabbit hole all alone.

OK, so even if we accept the notion that all voters who supported the Tories in 2015 actively wanted a referendum on the EU - which I know for a fact isn't true - you acknowledge that the majority of the electorate actually voted for parties that were not promising a referendum. So there is no credible evidence to support your claim that the majority of the public actually wanted a referendum after all.

And yes, the electorate chose to put a Tory government in power which had promised a referendum in its manifesto as a means of appeasing the right wing. However, there is no evidence to suggest that the 2015 election was fought on that single issue alone, or even that the promise of a referendum was the deciding factor.

The fact is, there is no evidence that the electorate were clamouring for a vote on this issue. Far from it.

My point is, the 2015 vote was to electorate a government. It says nothing conclusive about whether people actually wanted a referendum or not.

At the end of the day guys the vote was run on a great many lies.

Remember all the 'we still be part of the single market, still have a customs union' you can live, marry, work , retire still -- well that may be true if you are loaded or have a very in demand skill, but it's not remotely straight forward -

Remember all the pics of queues of Syrians etc ( what that had to do with the EU - f* knows)

If they had run it honestly based on what it has turned out to be , I doubt very much they would have got the numbers.

It was always about shoring up a Tory vote- appeasing 'many' (not all) old people and rich people with cash to hide and working class people who were voting ukip in quite large numbers

It was never about what was good for Britain