AIBU to call for VAT to be charged on childrens books?

[ZirihePevzig]

VAT is charged on things that are luxuries, so that wealthier people who can afford the extra luxuries of life pay more into the government's income for running the country than those who are just living with the bare essentials and making ends meet without luxuries. Therefore there is no VAT on basic food stuff, but more luxury foods like icecream, confectionary and crisps have VAT added, and food that is sold for eat-in in restaurants or sold heated (there was a whole thing about Greggs Pasties not being VATable if they are still hot straight from the oven, but would be VATable if reheated). In general, VAT is a good thing because wealthy people with a clever accountant can fiddle things to hide income and get away with paying less income tax than they should, but if you are leading a luxurious lifestyle you are going to pay the VAT on it.

Things that are considered to be generally "A Good Thing" don't get VAT added, such as sporting activities and physical education, education and training, and medical treatments - VAT is effectively a "brake" on spending on non-essentials and its seen as inappropriate to tax things like this that it's not a bad thing to spend money on. Books come under this category and so are zero-rated.

However, in real life, books really are a luxury - even without VAT a book is generally around £10 (sometimes it might be as low as £7) and you could feed a family for at least a day on that. Less wealthy families are going to use libraries and get access to books for free, so the main beneficiaries of the VAT exemption on books is wealthy families who can afford to throw away £10 on something they could access for free at the library. Some affluent households may own thousands of books, and that's a huge amount of luxury goods that could have been taxed. You won't find that kind of book collection in households struggling at close to poverty levels.

OK I admit it, I am not actually in favour of charging VAT on books, but the exact same argument - that only wealthier people can afford it - is used as justification for the suggestion that education should no longer be in the list of things that are VAT exempt. If this is the case and education should no longer be VAT free then books are in the same category.

So if you are voting that IABU to call for VAT on books then you should also be supporting non-profit-making schools - ones that are providing education as a service, not as a business, in regions where the state offering is inadequate - to be able to charge their fees at cost-price without adding VAT, even though not everyone can afford that.

So YANBU = yes books and education are only accessible to poor people in their "free" forms from public libraries and state schools, so anyone who can afford the extra money to access a better version privately should pay VAT on that luxury

YABU = books and education are ultimately good for society and not appropriate to be taxed, even though the available budget for spending on them will be unfeasible for many people.

What a twatty way to try and manipulate the answers to a vote

Twatty indeed. Not exactly enhancing the reputation of people who send their kids to private school while wailing that they aren’t privileged

It's not about the product or service per se, but about the kind of people using the product or service. Private schooling is seen as a luxury good in a way that books are not.

Even though the UK has more middle class people than ever before and children stay on at school longer than ever before, the number of children being educated at private school has fallen to lower levels than 50 years ago, at just 6% of all kids (and bear in mind that a large chunk of those are sixth formers who go to a private SF college for a couple of years).

This is partly because state schools have improved, but also because PS fees have risen far above inflation for 30 years or more, pricing most families out. There is therefore no longer enough of a constituency to really fight for private schooling access. It used to be that a huge % of the middle class, including opinion-makers such as journalists, tended to use private schools. Now they don't, for the most part.

I think this will come in, if we get a Labour government, which looks quite likely.

Books should never be a luxury. And the prices you quote - where are you buying your books?

Yours comparing apples to oranges in four attempt to make your defend your privilege. Private education is clearly a luxury, books are not anywhere in the same category of books. The point is I am sure all of us would love to give our children the same advantages as having a private education but the reality is it's not about priorities, it's simply not in the ability for many, no matter how much they would like to.

It's fantastic you are able to give your children that opportunity and you should feel proud you're able to prioritise that for them, but insisting it's the same as buying a book occasionally is a ridiculous argument. Also it would have a profound impact on authors and the ability to make a living from their profession.

Exactly.

Wah wah wah

Pass me the tiny violin.

Several of our friends who send their kids to private school are starting to bleat about this... I can see why they're p'd off about it but they're far from struggling even though they'd class themselves as middle class and 'ordinary' they are far from it.
I think they've genuinely lost perspective because they all come from MC/ well off families, they see that their parents generation seemed to have more money, or private school cost less or something whereas even though we probably are around they same as them financially it wouldn't occur to us to send our kids to private school.

They made their choices, and we've made ours but there's no way families who can afford between £15k-£20k per kid for schooling per year are 'ordinary'.

Our mate estimated that sending their 3 to secondary school until 6th form will cost them around £500k all in - over the next 7 year. Half a million quid! We live in a naice area with good schools. There's no private school worth half a million more than our state secondaries.

OP I think the majority voted YABU meaning your argument is unreasonable for equating books to private school fees. Not that they are agreeing with you. I doubt anyone waded through your thesis.

I've voted YABU because you clearly don't understand VAT rules.

VAT is not payable on luxury items. It is payable on luxury food items, bothing to do with how much they cost.

VAT is not payable on education or educational items which is why books are exempt as books are seen as educational.

School catchments must be a bigger deal in England. In all of Scotland I can think of maybe only 2 or 3 secondaries where families might pay a premium to make sure they can attend a certain school.

Most out of area requests are resolved quite easily

In my area there is only one secondary - so every pupil goes there.

Yep, this.

VAT is chargeable on all supplies of goods and services made in the UK - unless a specific zero rating or exemption applies.

Tax authorities don’t choose what to put VAT on. They choose (as allowable) what NOT to put VAT on.

Trafford is certainly like this and it becomes a dog fight for places between parents who put their kids through tutoring and the 11+. This is compounded by the fact that you don't need to live in Trafford to get a place if you get a good score on the 11+. So you get a lot of kids who live in Warrington, Cheshire East, Manchester and Salford also applying for the schools there.

I know a fair few parents who have gone down the private route even though all the local schools are well rated too. Again they would say they were ordinary, but they live in nice areas, can afford a lot of holidays and STILL have the money to put multiple kids through private school. They go on about how they have to cut back on lots of things but thats REALLY not true when you look at their lifestyle. What it means is they don't have skiing holidays, have slightly fewer branded clothes and shop at Aldi rather than buying branded - but still will have a Jamie Oliver level of understanding of 'cheap' in what they buy. Their budget still includes ciabatta and olives as essentials...

I home educate. There is no bursary. There are no helping hands. There is no funding from government or local authority. I pay for everything. I have to source everything. I have arrange exam centres and pay for invigilators etc for International General Certificate of Education (IGCSES) and A Levels. I have to arrange travel to and from classes clubs etc. that I have sourced. I have to facilitate my daughters education whilst taking a financial hit because I cannot work at the same time and we are surviving on one wage. I accept this because we decided not to opt into the state school (free education).

Yet I still believe that VAT should not be applied to any education or educational materials, including private education. State schools need more investment etc into curriculum, teachers, buildings etc but not at the penalisation of other children. If more children leave the private sector then it just puts more pressure on state schools.

But I think the OP has picked an indefensible argument re books and children’s education. I personally don’t think any books should have VAT applied they are not luxuries but essential to creating and maintaining a well rounded, educated society.

This is one of the worst ideas I have read.

Our large suburban town of 200000 people has 4 libraries and they all only open 10-4:30. Absolutely useless for people who work and students, when I was at college the main library was open till 8pm and I spent all my time there studying for my exams. My dc haven’t been since they were tiny because it’s not open at times when they can go.
I spend a fortune on books as a result, I look on it as an investment on their education.

Agreed.