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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to call for VAT to be charged on childrens books?

191 replies

ZirihePevzig · 11/04/2023 17:56

VAT is charged on things that are luxuries, so that wealthier people who can afford the extra luxuries of life pay more into the government's income for running the country than those who are just living with the bare essentials and making ends meet without luxuries. Therefore there is no VAT on basic food stuff, but more luxury foods like icecream, confectionary and crisps have VAT added, and food that is sold for eat-in in restaurants or sold heated (there was a whole thing about Greggs Pasties not being VATable if they are still hot straight from the oven, but would be VATable if reheated). In general, VAT is a good thing because wealthy people with a clever accountant can fiddle things to hide income and get away with paying less income tax than they should, but if you are leading a luxurious lifestyle you are going to pay the VAT on it.

Things that are considered to be generally "A Good Thing" don't get VAT added, such as sporting activities and physical education, education and training, and medical treatments - VAT is effectively a "brake" on spending on non-essentials and its seen as inappropriate to tax things like this that it's not a bad thing to spend money on. Books come under this category and so are zero-rated.

However, in real life, books really are a luxury - even without VAT a book is generally around £10 (sometimes it might be as low as £7) and you could feed a family for at least a day on that. Less wealthy families are going to use libraries and get access to books for free, so the main beneficiaries of the VAT exemption on books is wealthy families who can afford to throw away £10 on something they could access for free at the library. Some affluent households may own thousands of books, and that's a huge amount of luxury goods that could have been taxed. You won't find that kind of book collection in households struggling at close to poverty levels.

OK I admit it, I am not actually in favour of charging VAT on books, but the exact same argument - that only wealthier people can afford it - is used as justification for the suggestion that education should no longer be in the list of things that are VAT exempt. If this is the case and education should no longer be VAT free then books are in the same category.

So if you are voting that IABU to call for VAT on books then you should also be supporting non-profit-making schools - ones that are providing education as a service, not as a business, in regions where the state offering is inadequate - to be able to charge their fees at cost-price without adding VAT, even though not everyone can afford that.

So YANBU = yes books and education are only accessible to poor people in their "free" forms from public libraries and state schools, so anyone who can afford the extra money to access a better version privately should pay VAT on that luxury

YABU = books and education are ultimately good for society and not appropriate to be taxed, even though the available budget for spending on them will be unfeasible for many people.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 11/04/2023 18:31

Books as luxury items.

Jesus Christ.

Less wealthy families are going to use libraries and get access to books for free, so the main beneficiaries of the VAT exemption on books is wealthy families who can afford to throw away £10 on something they could access for free at the library

Let's talk about libraries and how many have closed shall we? Or how working parents who are 'wealthy' struggle to get to libraries these days due to changes in lifestyle where both parents now work and there is no longer a stay at home parent. This means accessing libraries has become a lot more difficult for everyone - including 'wealthy' families. I'd say a fair number of these families are really wealthy at all, but do put more value on a book than on endless bits of tat.

So far more books are perhaps being purchased as a result of not being able to get to the library.

Putting VAT on books would increase a standard paper back priced at £6.99 to £8.38. That's a huge increase and would have a massive impact on the availability of books.

Because the one thing you aren't talking about in this post is the huge explosion in the second hand book market. I've switched to going second hand for various reasons. The second hand book market benefits charities - there's a good local charity book shop or the mass online second hand book resellers.

This makes books a lot more affordable and available by driving the cost down for all due to supply available. Restricting supply would probably have more of a negative impact on all families across a range of economic backgrounds.

I have also donated good quality second hand books to schools. This benefits all the kids regardless of economic background.

Books seem to be one of those things that people don't tend to simply bin. They are either valued or passed on for others on some way until they fall to bits.

So I think the effect of VAT on books would be catastrophic so many ways. Not only would it devastate the publishing and printing industries who employ a lot of people but it would also decrease sales and availability of books across the board. This would in turn affect literacy levels.

I think it's really fucking small minded to label books as luxury items and assume that the only way you buy a book is new where VAT is applicable.

Remove head from arse and stop being a snob.

Allywill · 11/04/2023 18:32

surely libraries have to buy their books so if you make children’s books more expensive they will be able to buy less using their budget to lend out.?

SpringIntoChaos · 11/04/2023 18:32

My nearest library is 8 miles away - and living in a deprived, rural area means there's no regular public transport. Going to a library would absolutely be a luxury to many of the children round here 🤷‍♀️

Frenchfancy · 11/04/2023 18:32

Yabu to link vat on books with private education.

Everyone has access to vat free education. Everyone should be able to buy vat free books.

Private education is a luxury and should not be considered a charity.

donquixotedelamancha · 11/04/2023 18:33

It's a continuum, with affordability points for every household budget.

I don't see private education on the same continuum as books.

It's purpose is to allow the wealthy to network with each other and stifle social mobility.

takealettermsjones · 11/04/2023 18:34

This is a silly argument. Fee paying schools are absolutely a luxury given that there is a vastly cheaper (i.e. free) option, which is state school. Books are, in general, just books, and everyone needs them. They're not the same thing just because they're both in the vague category of education.

Arewehumanorarewecupboards · 11/04/2023 18:34

Stop the world I want to get off.

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2023 18:34

Allywill · 11/04/2023 18:32

surely libraries have to buy their books so if you make children’s books more expensive they will be able to buy less using their budget to lend out.?

VAT wouldn't be applicable to libraries.

SpringIntoChaos · 11/04/2023 18:35

Also...your argument is batshit!

GinUnicorn · 11/04/2023 18:35

YABU

This is such a weird strawman argument. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Of course private education is a luxury and I hope VAT is added.

Girasoli · 11/04/2023 18:36

Most books I buy my DC are cheaper than a return bus fare to my local library!

Somebodiesmother · 11/04/2023 18:37

Why are you comparing confectionary to books?

VeggieSalsa · 11/04/2023 18:37

I think the same about kids clothes. £7 for two t shirts in ASDA, well that could feed the family for the week. The wealthy are buying designer kids’ clothes from Louis Vuitton and getting huge tax breaks.

We should charge VAT on kids’ clothes too.

In case it’s not clear, I’m obviously being facetious.

Lovelyring · 11/04/2023 18:38

Glwysen · 11/04/2023 18:06

I think it would be reasonable to exempt school fees from vat to the equivalent level of per pupil state school funding - that being the amount the government consider appropriate to provide an education

I quite like this idea.

No to VAT on books.
Yes to VAT on private school fees above state school funding. Although would that then incentivize the government to lower state funding even more, to get more VAT from private schools?!

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2023 18:39

VeggieSalsa · 11/04/2023 18:37

I think the same about kids clothes. £7 for two t shirts in ASDA, well that could feed the family for the week. The wealthy are buying designer kids’ clothes from Louis Vuitton and getting huge tax breaks.

We should charge VAT on kids’ clothes too.

In case it’s not clear, I’m obviously being facetious.

We should charge VAT on kids clothes because it's unfair some kids are taller than others and need adult clothes sooner.

Therefore to make it fairer everyone should pay VAT because rich families have more clothes.

Perfect logic.

DietrichandDiMaggio · 11/04/2023 18:39

donquixotedelamancha · 11/04/2023 18:05

So if you are voting that IABU to call for VAT on books then you should also be supporting non-profit-making schools

I voted YABU because your long-winded argument is fatuous. Kids books do not cost the same as going to Eton.

Yes, I'll buy my niece a book as part of her Christmas present, but I'm not going to pay for her to go to private school, am I?

ThreeFeetTall · 11/04/2023 18:42

Maybe it should be made easier for poorer people to access books- for example private schools could open their libraries and resources up to the local community for free every weekend. And use their mini busses as mobile libraries. They are charities after all. Is that what you meant OP?

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 11/04/2023 18:44

Do you think the tax system should value internal consistency above justice, compassion and the common good?

Whiteroomjoy · 11/04/2023 18:45

🫤libraries and schools would then have to pay vat on all books they buy. Including the ones that they use to teach kids to read in classrooms 🤦‍♀️

AndIKnewYouMeantIt · 11/04/2023 18:46

Hibbutyhop · 11/04/2023 18:28

I can’t get behind any argument that would make books less accessible to any child, regardless of family income. Books and reading open up a whole new world of opportunities. I’ve always said I’d like money donated to Booktrust when I die.

Yep.

There's nothing quite as "luxury" as separating your precious kids from the local povvos and saying it's because Petunia wants to play lacrosse.

EyesOnThePies · 11/04/2023 18:46

Your analysis of the basis of VAT status is not accurate, I don’t buy your equivalencies, straw man arguments or logic.

So neither your YABU nor YANBU.

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · 11/04/2023 18:46

Well a lot of children’s books are a lot less than £10 and a lot of libraries have closed down so I don’t think it’s only the wealthy who buy books.

Exasperatednow · 11/04/2023 18:47

You are comparing private education and books. It is not the same thing.

Yabu.

TreesAtSea · 11/04/2023 18:48

Hibbutyhop · 11/04/2023 18:28

I can’t get behind any argument that would make books less accessible to any child, regardless of family income. Books and reading open up a whole new world of opportunities. I’ve always said I’d like money donated to Booktrust when I die.

Exactly

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2023 18:48

Girasoli · 11/04/2023 18:36

Most books I buy my DC are cheaper than a return bus fare to my local library!

I think this is the post that sums up things in reality tbh.

If it costs a fiver to get to the local library but you can buy a second hand book at the charity shop down the road for a quid, which was originally £3.50 down Tesco, how exactly does the VAT help the poor person who might value a book for whom the library trip weekly isn't viable?

Let's constrict supply so that the books are more expensive at Lowplex and they push the prices up on World of Books?

Now you can't get to the library, take advantage of a 2 for £7 offer, buy a box set for a tenner or buy four for three at £3.50 a throw (£10.50) either and there's less availability of £1 books at the charity shop who make less money from book sales. The library and local schools all get less books from donations too.

And you just put a whole load of printers, publisher's and authors out of work!

Congratulations OP on your new revolution 'for the people'.

You really are down with the joined up thinking on this one about books being a luxury...