AIBU to call for VAT to be charged on childrens books?

[ZirihePevzig]

VAT is charged on things that are luxuries, so that wealthier people who can afford the extra luxuries of life pay more into the government's income for running the country than those who are just living with the bare essentials and making ends meet without luxuries. Therefore there is no VAT on basic food stuff, but more luxury foods like icecream, confectionary and crisps have VAT added, and food that is sold for eat-in in restaurants or sold heated (there was a whole thing about Greggs Pasties not being VATable if they are still hot straight from the oven, but would be VATable if reheated). In general, VAT is a good thing because wealthy people with a clever accountant can fiddle things to hide income and get away with paying less income tax than they should, but if you are leading a luxurious lifestyle you are going to pay the VAT on it.

Things that are considered to be generally "A Good Thing" don't get VAT added, such as sporting activities and physical education, education and training, and medical treatments - VAT is effectively a "brake" on spending on non-essentials and its seen as inappropriate to tax things like this that it's not a bad thing to spend money on. Books come under this category and so are zero-rated.

However, in real life, books really are a luxury - even without VAT a book is generally around £10 (sometimes it might be as low as £7) and you could feed a family for at least a day on that. Less wealthy families are going to use libraries and get access to books for free, so the main beneficiaries of the VAT exemption on books is wealthy families who can afford to throw away £10 on something they could access for free at the library. Some affluent households may own thousands of books, and that's a huge amount of luxury goods that could have been taxed. You won't find that kind of book collection in households struggling at close to poverty levels.

OK I admit it, I am not actually in favour of charging VAT on books, but the exact same argument - that only wealthier people can afford it - is used as justification for the suggestion that education should no longer be in the list of things that are VAT exempt. If this is the case and education should no longer be VAT free then books are in the same category.

So if you are voting that IABU to call for VAT on books then you should also be supporting non-profit-making schools - ones that are providing education as a service, not as a business, in regions where the state offering is inadequate - to be able to charge their fees at cost-price without adding VAT, even though not everyone can afford that.

So YANBU = yes books and education are only accessible to poor people in their "free" forms from public libraries and state schools, so anyone who can afford the extra money to access a better version privately should pay VAT on that luxury

YABU = books and education are ultimately good for society and not appropriate to be taxed, even though the available budget for spending on them will be unfeasible for many people.

Translation:

OP has a massive chip on shoulder and wants to take it out on everyone else cos it's just not fair.

So is lashing out with nonsensical arguments because they lack the capacity to make a coherent one.

It is unreasonable to link private schools/VAT to VAT on books. They should be dealt with separately.

The other thing about VAT is that it does not have to be applied at 20%, but can be charged at any rate you want. You may be shocked that Child Car Seats and Boosters have VAT applied at 5% - surely these are more deserving of a zero rating than books!

One other point is that e-books are standard (20%) rated. I believe that VAT should be charged equally on paper and e-books.

Personally I would not be that bothered if books attracted VAT. The same goes for maps, magazines and newspapers which are all zero rated. Are you happy that The Guardian and The Daily Mail (pick your own pet hate) are zero rated for VAT?

‘It is unreasonable to link private schools/VAT to VAT on books’

its unreasonable because private schools are making use of charity tax
status while being very profitable private businesses that benefit the very few.

It needs to be taken away because it’s wrong and unfair.

Don't be ridiculous.

As a household on the poverty line, we certainly do have a home collection of books, hundreds of them. They are a priority in my budget because my children love to read, and its one of the best ways to educate and expand their minds. So no we absolutely do not need to be making them cost even a penny more. We don't have access to a library (not without two buses and dragging four kids there for a tatty copy of a book they can't keep).
Of all the things books?

Q‘Personally I would not be that bothered if books attracted VAT. ‘

okay, it if books go up by 20% - that’s a huge jump for people on lower incomes.

Ans what about schools buying them for their library and as resources and textbooks?
And what about children’s centres and charities and other places that buy books for children, and staff, to use, borrow, access?

State schools are already struggling with the huge cuts imposed upon them by the Tories over 13 years ( the Tories who send their children to private schools) and now we should make books
Orr expensive for them?

"Taking away charitable status doesn’t mean that VAT would be payable on fees anyway. Lots of independent schools aren’t charities."

That's true. However labour want to put a vat charge on private school fees as well as removing the charitable status. The flip side is that the schools can then reclaim input vat.

If I follow your argument then yes vat on both.
But actually we'd rather not discourage reading so let's not put vat on books. I don't have any reason to want to encourage private schools, perhaps richer parents would do more to help out state schools if they didn't exist.

Your original post is so unclear and hard to follow that I doubt most people who have voted actually agree with what you are trying to say. Which is what? Your kids are in an independent school and you don't want to pay VAT?

I assume that's because although right now your kids have an advantage over kids poorer than them that advantage may be taken away?

Thank goodness you aren’t homeschooling OP, you’re kids wouldn’t stand a chance being taught your kind of logic… still, could be an option if you can’t afford the fees, eh
anything better than, yuk, state school
i suppose…

Books are not and should never be considered a luxury. Books even “fun” ones are educational - children who read especially for pleasure are more likely to do well in education and be more likely to avoid a life of poverty as they grow. Why would anyone want to take that away. Many libraries are are closing thanks to government funding cuts at local levels so books are not as freely available as they ought to be.

Are you happy that The Guardian and The Daily Mail (pick your own pet hate) are zero rated for VAT?

well given that a lot of the purpose of newspapers is to hold power to account, and that's a cornerstone of democracy, yes I'm happy for all news based publications whether left or right wing be vat free.

Agreed.

And I think you set up the vote deliberately like that, so that yabu actually looked like people agreed with you.

I voted yabu because you are bu. I didn't agree with either of the options that you presented.

Most private schools are nothing like Eton. I f do I think the comparison is flawed though.

@MissGroves

Personally I agree.

However some may view books as source of entertainment such as a video game or film, it's just that the entertainment is much more likely to be engaged in by the middle class. In a working class community I think the issue is encouraging literacy and we should definitely be providing more free books to school libraries and possibly ensuring schools in poorer areas receive a disproportionately large number.

a book may be given as a present and one purpose (hopefully) is that the book brings entertainment. The question is should one form of entertainment be taxed and not another?

I always see this argument on MN that the family paying for a fee paying school is doing so because they make enormous sacrifices by not having new cars and holidays, without understanding that most people don't have new cars and holidays and still have no hope of ever being able to afford a private school. We also have autistic children and failing state schools and still would never be able to afford full or partial fees.

If you can afford it, good for you, but I would call it a luxury as it is not something the average family could ever afford.

I don't believe luxuries are discrete classes of items and anything of that thing from cheap to expensive are just a continuum of luxury/not luxury.

A handbag from Primark I wouldn't call a luxury. A designer handbag is a luxury. They are still both bags.

Words fail me.

I can afford to buy lots of books and I do. I also subscribe to Amazon Audible.

I also use the local library on a very regular basis: right now, I have 15 books out on my ticket and two Borrow Box audible books. That is because as a community we use use this valuable resource or we will lose it.

It is a valuable resource because books and reading are not luxuries. They will become so though if we close libraries and make books even more expensive. They will be for the well off only and that is a pretty good way of keeping knowledge from the poor.

Hands off our books!

The reason why you have the majority agreeing is because you've pushed them into a corner by putting private education in the same category as books. No one is ever going to vote that books should have vat. If you asked on private education only then you'd probably get a very different response but I suppose it's more important that you feel you're right so you've made a false equivalency to push your agenda.
Anyway, books should never have vat obviously. I actually don't think that private education should have vat either but you're so insufferable you've almost made me change my stance on that.

I haven’t voted as I don't agree with either of your options, and I think your interpretation of the case for VAT chargeable items is simplistic and flawed. (Although that said, I don’t agree with a lot of the rules within that)

A handful of the people who have actually posted on the thread (much fewer than those who have voted) have tried to argue that there's a qualitative difference between buying an additional educational advantage that they choose to buy vs buying an additional advantage

I think the above is the crux of it for me, the VAT is for the ‘additional advantage’ of the private educational service. I know you have done so, but I don’t believe books can be defined as an ‘additional advantage’. Most research would show how essential books are to development in a way that private education is not.

(For full disclosure I’m speaking as someone who was privately educated and whose family own a private school as a business and have done so all my life. We feel that VAT should be charged on fees, although obviously that not happening has business advantages).

Putting Vat on private education makes it marginally more exclusive than it already is. The OP sounds like the bleatings of someone who will be caught on the wrong side of the line if this happens, making it apparent to her that this is indeed what private education is like for the vast majority who couldn't afford it regardless of VAT or no VAT.

So if you are voting that IABU to call for VAT on books then you should also be supporting non-profit-making schools - ones that are providing education as a service, not as a business, in regions where the state offering is inadequate - to be able to charge their fees at cost-price without adding VAT, even though not everyone can afford that.

I don't think the two are comparable at all. The controversy about VAT exemption for private schools is because Eton is treated the same way as a local food bank. Books - digital and print - are excluded from VAT because reading is seen as a public good from which everyone benefits.

I agree with you OP. Most people who wish for VAT to be added to private education aren’t thinking it through. The state system won’t benefit from VAT on private education at all. What little money collected won’t be ringfenced.

All that will happen is that many wealthier families move to the catchment of great state schools, pushing up house prices and locking out poorer kids. In addition the freed up private school places will go to the superich only as well as wealthy foreigners. It’s not like the schools will close down so it won’t support equality, it will exacerbate exclusivity.

Meanwhile because the VAT precedent has been set, they will start to add it to healthcare and other things.

Labour made a strategic error announcing this intention as people like me see it as the thin end of a new tax hike wedge and a culture war issue. They should be focusing on things which will really support a stronger economy enabling more investment in schools such as getting us back into the Single Market or investments into innovation hubs which kick start productivity.

Just continually calling for more money to be taken from individuals doesn’t help anyone.

Don't be silly.

You've not addressed the public library situation, OP.