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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to call for VAT to be charged on childrens books?

191 replies

ZirihePevzig · 11/04/2023 17:56

VAT is charged on things that are luxuries, so that wealthier people who can afford the extra luxuries of life pay more into the government's income for running the country than those who are just living with the bare essentials and making ends meet without luxuries. Therefore there is no VAT on basic food stuff, but more luxury foods like icecream, confectionary and crisps have VAT added, and food that is sold for eat-in in restaurants or sold heated (there was a whole thing about Greggs Pasties not being VATable if they are still hot straight from the oven, but would be VATable if reheated). In general, VAT is a good thing because wealthy people with a clever accountant can fiddle things to hide income and get away with paying less income tax than they should, but if you are leading a luxurious lifestyle you are going to pay the VAT on it.

Things that are considered to be generally "A Good Thing" don't get VAT added, such as sporting activities and physical education, education and training, and medical treatments - VAT is effectively a "brake" on spending on non-essentials and its seen as inappropriate to tax things like this that it's not a bad thing to spend money on. Books come under this category and so are zero-rated.

However, in real life, books really are a luxury - even without VAT a book is generally around £10 (sometimes it might be as low as £7) and you could feed a family for at least a day on that. Less wealthy families are going to use libraries and get access to books for free, so the main beneficiaries of the VAT exemption on books is wealthy families who can afford to throw away £10 on something they could access for free at the library. Some affluent households may own thousands of books, and that's a huge amount of luxury goods that could have been taxed. You won't find that kind of book collection in households struggling at close to poverty levels.

OK I admit it, I am not actually in favour of charging VAT on books, but the exact same argument - that only wealthier people can afford it - is used as justification for the suggestion that education should no longer be in the list of things that are VAT exempt. If this is the case and education should no longer be VAT free then books are in the same category.

So if you are voting that IABU to call for VAT on books then you should also be supporting non-profit-making schools - ones that are providing education as a service, not as a business, in regions where the state offering is inadequate - to be able to charge their fees at cost-price without adding VAT, even though not everyone can afford that.

So YANBU = yes books and education are only accessible to poor people in their "free" forms from public libraries and state schools, so anyone who can afford the extra money to access a better version privately should pay VAT on that luxury

YABU = books and education are ultimately good for society and not appropriate to be taxed, even though the available budget for spending on them will be unfeasible for many people.

OP posts:
potatowhale · 11/04/2023 20:46

potatowhale · 11/04/2023 20:45

Nah its a luxury

(The education not the books)

Nimbostratus100 · 11/04/2023 20:47

ZirihePevzig · 11/04/2023 20:44

97% of 417ish voters agree with me.

(as you can see if you can read my posts, my own position is that it's unreasonable to charge VAT on educational benefits generally, including books - I was clear in the OP that "YABU" was a vote to agree with that POV)

A handful of the people who have actually posted on the thread (much fewer than those who have voted) have tried to argue that there's a qualitative difference between buying an additional educational advantage that they choose to buy vs buying an additional advantage that they don't or can't, but have not made any rational reason for drawing this difference other than that they want to. I can only imagine that these people abstained from the voting as they didn't agree with the fundamental premise - still a massive minority.

Show quote history

well, I voted YABU becasue you are being completely unreasonable, and if you think you have set it up so the vote means something, else then I disagree many people are following your post so closely as to even see that.

I would say voting YABU means YABU, rather than agreeing with you

Because YABU and 97% of voters think so

RiktheButler · 11/04/2023 20:48

ZirihePevzig · 11/04/2023 20:44

97% of 417ish voters agree with me.

(as you can see if you can read my posts, my own position is that it's unreasonable to charge VAT on educational benefits generally, including books - I was clear in the OP that "YABU" was a vote to agree with that POV)

A handful of the people who have actually posted on the thread (much fewer than those who have voted) have tried to argue that there's a qualitative difference between buying an additional educational advantage that they choose to buy vs buying an additional advantage that they don't or can't, but have not made any rational reason for drawing this difference other than that they want to. I can only imagine that these people abstained from the voting as they didn't agree with the fundamental premise - still a massive minority.

Show quote history

You weren't clear about anything, and I'd stake my mortgage on 97% just thinking you are being unreasonable generally. Please don't kid yourself that they actually agree with you, that would be a batshit conclusion

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2023 20:50

ZirihePevzig · 11/04/2023 20:17

I know that reading is not a luxury, knowledge is not a luxury, and education is not a luxury.

Most people, if they care about education, do what they can within their budget to enhance the access to education that their children can have, over and above what they can get for free.

For some, it's the odd extra cheap book in a supermarket trolley, for some it's subscriptions to magazines like NatGeo kids and Aquilla, for some it's extra lessons on saturdays to learn about other languages and cultures not covered by the school curriculum, and for some they might be able to afford partial fees and have the remainder made up by a bursary, or might be able to afford full fees. It is all the same continuum, and it's either a luxury or it's not. It's irrational to say that one end of the range is a luxury and the other end isn't.

As a few people have spotted, yes I have a DC at an independent school. We are no wealthier than our neighbours whose kids go to a local state school - yes a bit above average but not anything like "elite" - but (a) they have the good fortune that their child has no additional needs, and (b) they spend a similar sort of budget to what we spend on fees on their annual holidays (which alternate between skiing or All Inclusive luxury beach resorts), upgrading their car regularly, paying down their mortgage and boosting their pension and other things that we can't do. The independent school in question has about 40% kids with additional needs, mainly Dyslexia and Autism - but only about 10% of the pupils (ie a quarter of those with additional needs) are there with any council funding due to an EHCP. There's obviously a threshold of proof for state funding to provide that, and obviously it's rigorous, and obviously that threshold is far stricter than the level at which a concerned parent can see that their child is being totally failed by the underfunded state sector, with SEN provision that is far below what their child actually needs. The school isn't a great source of networking or elite privilege and makes no profit on the fees, but if fees go up by 20% I don't think enough pupils will be able to afford to stay for the school to stay financially viable, and hundreds of children with additional needs will be shoved back into a state sector that will let them down.

I can see that some people on this thread think all independent schools are like Eton. I can see that at the very top of the school fees spectrum, you might be able to distinguish between some proportion of the fees that are actually about providing education and some proportion that are actually buying luxurious standards of comfort and elite privilege. I have no idea how one could go about assessing what that split was, but if it could be assessed I don't suppose it would be too bad to charge VAT on the "luxury" proportion - but I know that the proportion is 0% or close to 0% for a lot of independent schools - which as I said in my OP are mostly making no profit and providing a service that is desperately needed in the context of an inadequate state provision.

Obviously I would much rather the state sector was adequately funded such that these schools weren't a vital lifeline. Cutting the lifeline isn't the way to achieve that.

There are clearly some people who want to believe that it's totally different and apparently "disingenuous" to equate the additional education they can afford by buying books and other cheaper ways to boost educational achievement vs the education that I can afford because I am willing to live a general lifestyle as if my income was at minimum-wage level, and put the difference into my child's education. I see your cognative disonance, that's why you are angry because it's an uncomfortable feeling in your mind until you can work out a reason to dismiss me with rudeness.

So if you didn't pay fees you could afford to go on skiing holidays?

Sorry but I still think you live in la la land.

WarningToTheCurious · 11/04/2023 20:50

97% of 417ish voters agree with me.

Erm … 97% of people read the thread title about VAT on books and didn’t get any further than that.

ChunkaMunkaBoomBoom · 11/04/2023 20:53

‘97% of 417ish voters agree with me.’

are you a Tory politician? You sound like one …

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2023 20:53

I voted yabu because you are talking fucking bollocks.

Don't read anymore into it.

potatowhale · 11/04/2023 20:53

ZirihePevzig · 11/04/2023 20:44

97% of 417ish voters agree with me.

(as you can see if you can read my posts, my own position is that it's unreasonable to charge VAT on educational benefits generally, including books - I was clear in the OP that "YABU" was a vote to agree with that POV)

A handful of the people who have actually posted on the thread (much fewer than those who have voted) have tried to argue that there's a qualitative difference between buying an additional educational advantage that they choose to buy vs buying an additional advantage that they don't or can't, but have not made any rational reason for drawing this difference other than that they want to. I can only imagine that these people abstained from the voting as they didn't agree with the fundamental premise - still a massive minority.

Show quote history

No your voting was confusing coz your title says one thing then you wrote a really waffly argument and then made your poll about something else

ChunkaMunkaBoomBoom · 11/04/2023 20:53

‘As a few people have spotted, yes I have a DC at an independent school.’

no! I’m stunned to hear that.

potatowhale · 11/04/2023 20:54

WarningToTheCurious · 11/04/2023 20:50

97% of 417ish voters agree with me.

Erm … 97% of people read the thread title about VAT on books and didn’t get any further than that.

Yeah it's like writing that as a title then slipping in oh by the way if you agree with this you also agree the moon is made of cheese.

Blankscreen · 11/04/2023 20:55

I wonder if the op is written by one of the idiots currently working on the Labour adverts.

Yep charge VAT on school fees but only if you also get rid of faith schools, state grammar schools and school catchments and allocate all places on a lottery system.

Otherwise the parents that have been paying £2k a month in school fees out of already taxed income might just decide to just buy a nicer houses near to the best state schools.....

Probably also need to charge VAT on private tutoring.

ChunkaMunkaBoomBoom · 11/04/2023 20:56

Think of it this way, when you end up paying more in fees because your ‘independent’ school knows it’s parents can afford it you’ll have a new stealth boast topic for your diner party chat… maybe to replace the size of the heating bill for the holiday house/ pool/stables etc?
something fresh.

EscapeRoomToTheSun · 11/04/2023 20:59

These two things are not comparable. Poor people do buy books, just fewer of them. You can't buy a couple of board books worth of private schooling.

Personally I think they should be abolished anyway.

Hawkins003 · 11/04/2023 21:00

Reading with intrigue

tigger1001 · 11/04/2023 21:00

Rather than the poor argument re books and education, why not argue that taking away the charitable status isn't likely to actually save the amount that labour claim and in fact could be at best cost neutral.

Look at the arguments instead of trying to create a daft comparison.

Another76543 · 11/04/2023 21:06

Blankscreen · 11/04/2023 20:55

I wonder if the op is written by one of the idiots currently working on the Labour adverts.

Yep charge VAT on school fees but only if you also get rid of faith schools, state grammar schools and school catchments and allocate all places on a lottery system.

Otherwise the parents that have been paying £2k a month in school fees out of already taxed income might just decide to just buy a nicer houses near to the best state schools.....

Probably also need to charge VAT on private tutoring.

Exactly. Private schools are no more unfair than the taxpayer funding schools which openly discriminate based on religion or which have such a tiny catchment area that only the wealthy who can afford high house prices can get in. The only fair way is to put everyone in a lottery system. That would lead to much more equality rather than the current situation where the highly performing schools are often filled with the middle classes who can afford private tutoring and expensive houses.

Another76543 · 11/04/2023 21:07

tigger1001 · 11/04/2023 21:00

Rather than the poor argument re books and education, why not argue that taking away the charitable status isn't likely to actually save the amount that labour claim and in fact could be at best cost neutral.

Look at the arguments instead of trying to create a daft comparison.

Taking away charitable status doesn’t mean that VAT would be payable on fees anyway. Lots of independent schools aren’t charities.

takealettermsjones · 11/04/2023 21:09

It's irrational to say that one end of the range is a luxury and the other end isn't.

No it isn't. There are basic versions and luxury versions of most everything. There is basic food and luxury food items. Basic apartments and luxury apartments.

You seem to be labouring under the delusion that national tax law should be based on your narrow comparison of your own and your neighbours' incomes. Fortunately the government has to take into account everyone in the country, including the vast majority who could never afford private education for their kids no matter how many pipe dreams of skiing they gave up and how talented little Ophelia is with the piccolo.

If you're right that your kids absolutely need their independent school because of the SEN provision, then surely the answer is to tax private schooling but let parents of children with SEN apply for a tax break on their fees.

Saniflo · 11/04/2023 21:10

Don't be a knob. I came from a very poor, working class background and we had loads of books. Why would you want to make books less accessible to people? You sound like a loon.

ChunkaMunkaBoomBoom · 11/04/2023 21:17

‘Why would you want to make books less accessible to people? ‘

OP is upset that the business she uses may charge her more for their services, and somehow taking away more opportunities for
less well off children than hers will
somehow ease the pain of this.

Notjustabrunette · 11/04/2023 21:18

I actually see VAT as a tax on poorer people. Reason being income tax is obviously directly related to income, but everyone has to buy clothing, furniture pay for a plumber, electrician etc. Poorer households spend a larger portion of their income on VAT compared with more affluent households.
No I don’t think taxing children’s books is a good idea.

Toomucho · 11/04/2023 21:22

You've given a false dilemma. A reasonable alternative is that books should be VAT free and private schools should not because books are good for society and private schools are not.

Ilovemydoggie · 11/04/2023 21:22

I don’t think there should be VAT on education full stop; a well educated population benefits the country as a whole. Education is a charitable purpose in its own right.

I also think that the law of unintended consequences would apply if VAT were to be added to school fees. The result would be more DC needing state school places and fewer resources to go round for everyone. It would increase inequality, rather than reduce it.

potatowhale · 11/04/2023 21:23

Oranges don't have vat but Orange juice does

Toomucho · 11/04/2023 21:24

Private schools help to enforce intergenerational inequality in the UK, they are a benefit to only those who attend them and a disbenefit to society.