AIBU to call for VAT to be charged on childrens books?

[ZirihePevzig]

VAT is charged on things that are luxuries, so that wealthier people who can afford the extra luxuries of life pay more into the government's income for running the country than those who are just living with the bare essentials and making ends meet without luxuries. Therefore there is no VAT on basic food stuff, but more luxury foods like icecream, confectionary and crisps have VAT added, and food that is sold for eat-in in restaurants or sold heated (there was a whole thing about Greggs Pasties not being VATable if they are still hot straight from the oven, but would be VATable if reheated). In general, VAT is a good thing because wealthy people with a clever accountant can fiddle things to hide income and get away with paying less income tax than they should, but if you are leading a luxurious lifestyle you are going to pay the VAT on it.

Things that are considered to be generally "A Good Thing" don't get VAT added, such as sporting activities and physical education, education and training, and medical treatments - VAT is effectively a "brake" on spending on non-essentials and its seen as inappropriate to tax things like this that it's not a bad thing to spend money on. Books come under this category and so are zero-rated.

However, in real life, books really are a luxury - even without VAT a book is generally around £10 (sometimes it might be as low as £7) and you could feed a family for at least a day on that. Less wealthy families are going to use libraries and get access to books for free, so the main beneficiaries of the VAT exemption on books is wealthy families who can afford to throw away £10 on something they could access for free at the library. Some affluent households may own thousands of books, and that's a huge amount of luxury goods that could have been taxed. You won't find that kind of book collection in households struggling at close to poverty levels.

OK I admit it, I am not actually in favour of charging VAT on books, but the exact same argument - that only wealthier people can afford it - is used as justification for the suggestion that education should no longer be in the list of things that are VAT exempt. If this is the case and education should no longer be VAT free then books are in the same category.

So if you are voting that IABU to call for VAT on books then you should also be supporting non-profit-making schools - ones that are providing education as a service, not as a business, in regions where the state offering is inadequate - to be able to charge their fees at cost-price without adding VAT, even though not everyone can afford that.

So YANBU = yes books and education are only accessible to poor people in their "free" forms from public libraries and state schools, so anyone who can afford the extra money to access a better version privately should pay VAT on that luxury

YABU = books and education are ultimately good for society and not appropriate to be taxed, even though the available budget for spending on them will be unfeasible for many people.

I don't think that I'm being unreasonable to think that most people who read a lot use computers and e readers etc because they can afford to and its much more convenient where as people with less disposable income buy books as and when they can afford to

YABU. Lots of people at all economic levels prefer reading a print book.

Whether a child grows up in a home that reads regularly with them, or not, has an impact on the child's development. YABU.

If there's the option for a family to have a couple of VAT free books in their supermarket shop Vs having to travel somewhere across town to a library that might or might not be open at convenient times, I'd rather have the best option for getting books to children.

Interesting. Where the argument fails is the proportion of people who buy books (almost everyone) vs the proportion of people who send kids to private schools (almost no one). The world is not divided into super rich and super poor; there is a large middle / working class who should be able to afford books, even if they don’t send their kids to Eton.

How do you think libraries acquire books? And do you think charging VAT on that will make libraries better stocked???

I’m fully aware that lots of talented children attend state schools. I went to state school so know exactly the different types of children who attend.

If those able children end up in exactly the same position regardless of the school they attend, what’s the issue with private school? If they end up at the same universities anyway, they haven’t gained any unfair advantage by going to private school have they? All that’s happened is that they haven’t taken up a state place, which would have cost the taxpayer thousands of pounds.

You can’t argue that something is a “luxury” just because some people can’t afford it, or because they choose to spend their money on other things. Plenty of families in this country can’t afford books or even decent food. It doesn’t make those items a luxury.

I’m not sure that those families scrimping and saving to put their child with special needs through private school because they cannot cope in the state system would view it as a luxury.

I absolutely agree that all children should have the same opportunities in life, be that education, extra curricular activities, a safe family home, or a healthy diet etc. It’s sadly not real life though. Inequality in this country runs far deeper than some children attending private school. Taxing private schools and the small amount of money it would raise isn’t going to solve inequality. Much greater action is needed for that, and perhaps politicians’ efforts should be focused on that rather than their current “it’s not fair” foot stamping over private schools.

A lot of children with the most complex needs are educated in independent schools funded by the council, these families are some of the most vulnerable in society and yet you want to make them less accessible by making them more expensive

I think you are being disingenuous if you think these are the type of schools that most people are talking about when they talk about private education and I'm sure different rules could apply to them anyway.
Nobody who has a child that attends an independent special school for pupils with complex needs is trying to gain an advantage over other children, and to qualify for that place they are almost definitely at a disadvantage for their whole life compared to the vast majority of people.
I will declare an interest as one of my children attended such a school and we had to go to tribunal to get the county council to fund the very high fees, which they were told they had to do, as they could not meet his needs in any local schools. Not being able to meet the needs of very disabled children is very different to not having a concert orchestra or amazing sports facilities in a comprehensive school.

Yes but it’s chocolate “coating”. Eyes? Fine. Tie? Not fine.

And if you put loadsa chocolate in between two biscuits & not on outside = also fine.

Beautiful madness of a tax.

I’m staying in with you! The recent merry go round of e-books is equally fascinating.

How is adding VAT to school fees going to stop the wealthy from networking? It won’t.

Of course not, no-one has suggested it would. Personally I wouldn't want to live in a society that tried to.

I just don't want to subsidise it with tax breaks.

This is a poorly reasoned argument and it's ridiculous to attempt to present it as some sort of "gotcha"; if you disagree with X then you must also disagree with Y, even though the two things are not connected.

Reading is not a luxury. It should be affordable and accessible to all. Imagine the benefits to all of us if we lived in a society where almost everyone was well-read across a broad range of literature. I would never support any attempt to make books more expensive and less accessible than they need to be. Lots of low and middle income families make sacrifices in order to buy those £3 board books for their toddlers, the £7 picture books for their primary kids, the £9 novels for their teens. It's certainly not just wealthy people who buy them.

On the other hand, any family that can afford to even contemplate private education for their children is wealthy and does not require a financial break from the government. The tax payer already provides a free education for every child. Private education is absolutely a luxury. If there are areas where every single accessible state school is inadequate, those schools need urgent improvement and this is where efforts need to be focused; not on giving wealthy families a tax break.

Did you learn your logical reasoning skills at a private school, OP? If so, is it too late to apply for a refund? Excluding VAT, of course.

I voted YABU because you're being unreasonable to equate children's books with private school fees. The former are accessible to many families, to a greater or lesser extent. The latter only to a very privileged few.

That said, I thought you potentially had a point about making children's books VATable, if they are genuinely bought by wealthier families only. We would need to see some research on the demographics of people who buy children's books in order to explore this further. If it is very rare for families from lower income backgrounds to purchase books for their children, then I would absolutely support charging VAT on them and using them proceeds to support book tokens for disadvantaged children, or similar.

There is nothing at all in your argument that persuades me that private education should be exempt from VAT.

Sorry which button do I use to vote if I think YABU for drawing a false equivalence between kids books (which incidentally schools and libraries also have to buy, and they wouldn’t be able to claim the VAT back) and private education which is a fundamental barrier to social mobility and equality.

This post is ripe for being on shabazsays.

Of course PRIVATE EDUCATION should be taxed. Who else is going to pay for our povvo kids to get their povvo state education from the underpaid and under resourced teachers and staff?

Maybe our kids shouldn't even go to school, they dont need books and teaching or to waste time getting GCSEs when they dont need even a basic education for the minimum wage jobs they are undoubtedly destined for.

Get them down the mines instead so they can start paying taxes sooner...no doubt they will be a disproportionate drain on the NHS throughout their lives anyway.

Better the middle classes save tax and spend it on ski trips.

In most places the libraries are in wealthy areas not poor ones as the books get stolen / vandalised.

I’m not sure that those families scrimping and saving to put their child with special needs through private school because they cannot cope in the state system would view it as a luxury.

Well, it depends on the special need whether most private schools will welcome them.
I work in a state primary and have known children be 'managed out' of private school by the age of seven, when it has become obvious that the school is not willing/able to accommodate their SEN, and we had a child with Downs Syndrome whose brothers attended very prestigious independent schools - funnily enough their parents had to rely on the state for their education, despite their wealth. I guess those paying lots for their child's education don't expect them to be disrupted by more challenging children -a luxury those in state schools don't have.

I would make an exception on VAT for private schools which exclusively cater to children with SEN.

I am not particularly wealthy, my 11 year old child however has hundreds and I mean hundreds of books on his huge floor to ceiling book shelves because I consider reading to be incredibly important and he enjoys it immensely. Now, my child doesn't have any hobbies that cost me money - ie our only hobby is hill climbing which is free.

The library in our local area has about 5 books for his supposed reading age all published under a footballers name of which he is not interested and there is nothing for his actual reading age at all because in my area teenagers in the library is less likely than tits on a fish.

So, let's say putting VAT on books made it impossible for me to afford (it wouldn't but let's pretend), what would you have my son do?!

Librarian here. YABU.

IMO there should be a brake on private schools. If they didnt exist the private funding would magically appear as mr and mrs millionaire wouldnt send poor Humphrey to the local failing comprehensive.

I think you need to read more books OP. You're not as clever as you think you are.

If they can make biscuits with a bit of chocolate vat free and biscuits with chocolate on subject to vat

Then the logic is they can make private school places for privately funded individuals vatable and private school places for local government assisted individuals non vatable.

Job done. Problem solved.

One of the reasons a bunch of schools are shit is because the middle classes took their kids out because they didn't think they were good enough for them and the lack of those kids meant academic standards dropped and there were a lack of pushy parents to keep on top of the rest of stuff.

Of course middle class parents who go private 'because the local schools are so terrible they have no choice' don't grasp their own decision making in the effect. It's like de-gentrification of schools...

I find it sad that you think of books as a luxury item.

Exactly this.