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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be outraged about fee-paying schools and social inequality?

469 replies

coffeerevelsrule · 10/04/2023 16:45

I have a ds in Y11 who has been researching potential careers and degrees and it has brought home to me what a horribly unequal society we still have in this country. Apparently 70% of barristers went to public school and there are similar stats for other desirable non-stem roles like journalism and the civil service, as well as medicine. It's a bloody disgrace - what a joke for a supposedly modern society.

And it seems that certain schemes like blind recruitment might also feed into this as although going to Oxbridge might have become slightly more attainable recently thanks to contextual offers and an awareness that those institutions shouldn't be filled with people from certain schools, now blind recruitment means the advantage a state school student may have got from going there is pretty much cancelled out.

To me it seems that ds is most disadvantaged in a way as he wouldn't qualify for schemes aimed at people who are the first in their families to go to uni and we aren't in a deprived area, but he has none of the advantages that would have come from going to an independent school. Everything about us is just average!

He is very bright (predicted all 9s and got that in his mocks) and wants to achieve but it seems that the odds are against people like him having prestigious roles. Obviously when he is quoting these stats at me I'm telling him not to be defeatist and that he has every chance of doing something amazing as long as he keeps working hard, but inside I'm wondering if how true that is.

I've always been against fee-paying schools but him reeling off all these stats at me has just been sickening and yet when Labour make noises about doing something about it there's outrage when in my opinion there should be daily outrage about the current situation.

Can anyone who cares about fairness honestly say I'm BU?

OP posts:
SmileyHappyDoggos · 10/04/2023 16:50

I’m just wondering how this has brought it home to you that life isn’t fair, did you not realise before that many people are disadvantaged from birth just because of their race or sex or...... You’re probably more privilege than many if you’re only feeling it now.

Yazo · 10/04/2023 16:51

YANBU but life lesson number one ticked. Second life lesson, average is definitely a lot more privileged than 'first in family/FSM/disadvantaged' so like the rest of us, he just has to make his way in the world and if he's not a 'top' anything then that's fine, people can achieve great things in life even if it's not a status everyone recognises. For what it's worth more privately educated kids go on to do pretty much nothing special and their parents spend all that money for no different jobs than the rest of us.

Kendodd · 10/04/2023 16:52

I agree. Apart from the bit about your son being most disadvantaged because he hasn't grown up in deprivation.
If private school didn't buy advantage for mediocre children, nobody would pay for it. I believe Finland is widely regarded to have the best education system in the world, with no private schools, or rather no private schools were students can take Finish national exams .

TuesdayJulyNever · 10/04/2023 16:55

If you look at this another way, average is the most privileged position anyone can be in.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 10/04/2023 16:56
  1. He is bright and predicted straight 9s.
  1. He has a supportive family who care about his future.
  1. He does not come from a deprived background.

He is already a great deal more fortunate than many in our society. If he works hard, he will do well regardless of which school he went to.

titchy · 10/04/2023 16:58

So basically your very bright, university focussed, male child who has supportive parents is at a disadvantage - is that really what you're saying? Despite hitting most of the branches on the privilege tree you want him to have more?

Twizbe · 10/04/2023 16:58

I always think with stats like this, the more useful version looks across the age bands as well.

How many barristers close to retirement went to private school vs those just entering the profession.

That's a 40 year time period, where lots has changed in terms of education and recruitment.

IncessantNameChanger · 10/04/2023 16:59

I can't afford indi schooling but I dislike the idea of scrapping indi schools. It feels like a race to the bottom to me. No one I worked with in the civil service lower to mid ranks was privately schooled. Money will never willingly flow down if you try to move private school kids into state. If i worked hard and I was loaded I would want my kids to get the very best. That's the motivation of capitalism. If i was loaded, I'd look to educate my kids abroad tbh. I live in a wealthy area. None of the very wealthy parents at the village state care about a level field for all the kids at the school. They still turn their noses up at the sen kids and lobby to get the adhd kids expelled. I think it's a nice idea but it's not reality.

AussiUnHomme · 10/04/2023 17:00

Yeah, but life's a bit shit like that. Far better to learn it early in life.

DustyLee123 · 10/04/2023 17:01

My nephew was coached to get into a grammar school and Cambridge. He came out with lower A levels and degree than my DS who went to the local comp and college.
Youve either got it or you haven’t.

Original poster
coffeerevelsrule · 10/04/2023 17:02

Alright, I was a dick to say he was most disadvantaged but it is a bit gutting when you see it all laid out. For many of these top flight careers you seem to need to be able to do unpaid/low paid internships etc, which I would be totally unable to support him in as a divorced teacher with two kids and an ex who doesn't contribute. But obviously that doesn't make him more disadvantaged than many but it's unfair.

OP posts:
Gruelle · 10/04/2023 17:04

No one cares where you went to school at the Bar. Chambers do like Oxbridge Firsts and academic prizes. However, what distinguishes a large proportion of practising barristers (as opposed to those who left after Bar exams or after pupillage) is (still) having sufficient independent income to survive the first few years when fees are slow to come in but Chambers rent is constantly rising. These people may well have come from independent schools - but that’s because they’re from wealthy families, not because the school somehow magicked a career for them.

People don’t (f’rinstance) go skiing because they went to private school, or own huge houses in quaint villages because they went to private school, or remember lockdown as a lovely peaceful time of long walks and gardening and family togetherness because they went to private school - they have access to these things because they have money, probably across generations.

Not sure what else to say to you …

EuripidesEumenides · 10/04/2023 17:05

YANBU. But you've cited three professions which are prestigious but paid atrociously. Education probably plays a part but these days you'd need wealth from family or similar wealth to have any decent living standards in any of them. I'd argue poor salaries are a far worse brake on diverse social backgrounds.

RULEF0LL0WER · 10/04/2023 17:05

I know lots of barristers who didn’t go to public school or Oxbridge. Although most of them were bright with supportive middle class families, just like your son OP.

Like a PP I’m amazed that you’ve only just become away of social inequality in the Uk.

titchy · 10/04/2023 17:05

coffeerevelsrule · 10/04/2023 17:02

Alright, I was a dick to say he was most disadvantaged but it is a bit gutting when you see it all laid out. For many of these top flight careers you seem to need to be able to do unpaid/low paid internships etc, which I would be totally unable to support him in as a divorced teacher with two kids and an ex who doesn't contribute. But obviously that doesn't make him more disadvantaged than many but it's unfair.

He is still far more advantages than the vast majority. FFS think about what you whinge about. 90% of his peers are at a disadvantage compared to him. Fucking 90% and you're moaning about him not being able to compete with the 10%? Imagine how the kids half way along the curve must feel.

BMW6 · 10/04/2023 17:06

Well just how would you equalise Life OP?

Obviously not just for the benefit of your sons particular situation, because that would be incredibly selfish.....

Holly60 · 10/04/2023 17:07

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 10/04/2023 16:56

  1. He is bright and predicted straight 9s.
  1. He has a supportive family who care about his future.
  1. He does not come from a deprived background.

He is already a great deal more fortunate than many in our society. If he works hard, he will do well regardless of which school he went to.

This. I'd add he is male.

Having gotten thus far he will not be disadvantaged. The reason so many barristers come from private school backgrounds is because they are the ones who get good grades and go to university.

If your DS has good grades and is going to uni, he hasn't been disadvantaged by going to state school.

Botw1 · 10/04/2023 17:07

Wealth inequality will never ho away because those with the wealth dont want it to and will gaslight those and the bottom to keep accepting it.

Look at these responses

VeggieSalsa · 10/04/2023 17:08

EuripidesEumenides · 10/04/2023 17:05

YANBU. But you've cited three professions which are prestigious but paid atrociously. Education probably plays a part but these days you'd need wealth from family or similar wealth to have any decent living standards in any of them. I'd argue poor salaries are a far worse brake on diverse social backgrounds.

This.

Barristers are woefully underpaid, and so it might be that only those with wealthy families (who paid for private school) have the means to be able to sustain the low paid (but prestigious) career.

Justalittlebitduckling · 10/04/2023 17:08

Where do you live? In my experience you really need a way for him to do internships in London if he’s looking at these careers. That’s one of the biggest barriers. I do think times are changing.

L1ttledrummergirl · 10/04/2023 17:09

Yabvu.
We live in a deprived area, ds1 is the first go go to university so he would (and did) qualify for the gateway course into vetmed. He was actually accepted on his own merit in the end without the contextual offer so it shows that it can be done.

Your ds needs to follow his heart and he will find a way.

Skybluepinky · 10/04/2023 17:10

I don’t think u r disadvantage just normal. Some disadvantage children are carers for parents and siblings, live in overcrowded conditions where it’s impossible to get a quiet moment for study. They go to schools where they struggle to attract decent teachers and have pe teachers teaching maths and English who only have a GCE grade C or B.
Life is unfair but contextual offers do come into play to help the truest disadvantaged.

SunnySaturdayMorning · 10/04/2023 17:10

YABU. If he’s got what it takes he’ll achieve what he wants.

If he hasn’t, he won’t.

Stellanotbud · 10/04/2023 17:10

@coffeerevelsrule then many of those professions require unpaid internships which is really only open to those lucky kids whose parents either live in London or another major city.. Or else can afford to pay rent & cost of living for the child.. Journalism & the media are notorious for unpaid internships & nepotism to get one in the first instance.. I agree it's very unfair.

h3ll0o · 10/04/2023 17:10

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 10/04/2023 16:56

  1. He is bright and predicted straight 9s.
  1. He has a supportive family who care about his future.
  1. He does not come from a deprived background.

He is already a great deal more fortunate than many in our society. If he works hard, he will do well regardless of which school he went to.

I’d say your son is most definitely at an advantage.

I live in a deprived area so I can afford to pay for my daughter to attend private school from age 5-18. Most of the mums at the school where she attends nursery are paid minimum wage and have incredibly low expectations of themselves and their children.

The reasons so many of the top posts are filled by these individuals is because their parents where invested in education and has high expectations for them. Just like you do for you son.