To be outraged about fee-paying schools and social inequality?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I have a ds in Y11 who has been researching potential careers and degrees and it has brought home to me what a horribly unequal society we still have in this country. Apparently 70% of barristers went to public school and there are similar stats for other desirable non-stem roles like journalism and the civil service, as well as medicine. It's a bloody disgrace - what a joke for a supposedly modern society.

And it seems that certain schemes like blind recruitment might also feed into this as although going to Oxbridge might have become slightly more attainable recently thanks to contextual offers and an awareness that those institutions shouldn't be filled with people from certain schools, now blind recruitment means the advantage a state school student may have got from going there is pretty much cancelled out.

To me it seems that ds is most disadvantaged in a way as he wouldn't qualify for schemes aimed at people who are the first in their families to go to uni and we aren't in a deprived area, but he has none of the advantages that would have come from going to an independent school. Everything about us is just average!

He is very bright (predicted all 9s and got that in his mocks) and wants to achieve but it seems that the odds are against people like him having prestigious roles. Obviously when he is quoting these stats at me I'm telling him not to be defeatist and that he has every chance of doing something amazing as long as he keeps working hard, but inside I'm wondering if how true that is.

I've always been against fee-paying schools but him reeling off all these stats at me has just been sickening and yet when Labour make noises about doing something about it there's outrage when in my opinion there should be daily outrage about the current situation.

Can anyone who cares about fairness honestly say I'm BU?

@coffeerevelsrule it is a common misconception that Oxbridge give contextual offers - they don't. All offers are the same and based on rigorous selection (entry test/exam then interview). Oxbridge is taking more state school dc because more are applying - we will similarly see this filtering through to professions over time. And although many grad schemes recruit blind, many employers trawl ALL the top universities by offering job fairs and encouraging applications for vacation schemes/internships. Please support your ds to look more widely at the realities.

Just to say that some of your examples are less to do with schooling and more to do with family wealth - journalism for example I recall relies a lot on internships - which basically needs a family t support you

But people within acting and sport are complaining that both of these are becoming more difficult to get into without a private school background.

Well this is pretty insulting. I love the way you gloss over the fact that ds does not have two parents willing/able to work two jobs to pay for him to go to private schools or to save for his future. Is it my fault I'm divorced and ex doesn't contribute financially? Maybe (I don't think so though. Is it ds's fault? Absolutely not, so, yes, he is at a disadvantage by that matrix. Will ex and I benefit from inheritances? Maybe, maybe not. Am I supposed to feel admiration for those who do and choose to spend it on their kids' education? Not sure what your point is there. I've had no money from my parents thus far, inheritance nor other help. I work on average around 60 hours a week in my job and often feel like I'm hanging on by my fingernails with parenting - a second job is no way possible and I would have had no childcare for it when it was needed anyway.

So you're lecturing me about being advantaged but there's two measures in your own post by which me (and therefore my kids) are absolutely not.

I'm pretty sure my holiday find would not have come close to paying for private school for 2 kids and I'm opposed to them anyway so it wasn't a consideration.

OP, as I said above I’m a former free school meals girl who is now in a “prestigious” profession. I’ve learnt that the biggest factor to success is attitude. I went to a typical Northern comprehensive full of white working class children. I now have one DC at a top state grammar and the other at an indie. Their schools are far more diverse than mine and it’s been a real eye opener as to how other cultures value education much more than the one I grew up in. DS1’s state grammar sends 40 kids to medical school each year, with the majority of those students being the kids of doctors themselves with many of the parents being born outside the UK so you can’t blame the British class system for their success. They expect success, they expect hard work.

*Your son comes from a supportive household and predicted straight 9s.

If you'd paid for his education then he'd still be from a supportive household and predicted straight 9s.

Yabu to think he's disadvantaged*

Exactly.

Rather than being 'outraged' by fee paying schools, I suggest you focus your efforts on continuing to support and encourage your son.

I love the way you gloss over the fact that ds does not have two parents willing/able to work two jobs to pay for him to go to private schools or to save for his future. Is it my fault I'm divorced and ex doesn't contribute financially?

I love the way you gloss over the fact that my DC have one parent who is divorced with an ex husband who has made no financial contribution at all - but because they went to independent schools, you imagine they are somehow able to do unpaid work experience.

You and I both have shit ex husbands, and both have children who have benefited from a supportive and educated parent. Neither of us could say that our children have been disadvantaged, and it's ridiculous to stamp your feet and say it's not fair. You're far better encouraging your son to carry on doing his best and to believe that the world is his proverbial oyster, rather than limiting his horizons with your own silly prejudices.

Interesting can you point me to your scientific research evidence to back up this anecdotal evidence...

My dad was a barrister most definitely a working class background, he worked on the railways til he had enough saved up for uni. Used to work in pubs so he could do his bar exam.

There are ways and means it might not be the most direct route but perfectly doable if he has the drive to do so.

I've done the same with a science career (my dad was determined if I wanted something then I did it so I put myself through uni and masters). I did work experience in annual leave time, did volunteering and continued badgering for trainee positions it paid off eventually. I started a bit later then some at 25 in my profession but went up quickly probably because of determination! Never went to private school either!

You could google yourself

This might be a worthwhile staring point

www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14976337.communities-value-education-highly/

This is 100% it.

I know people with a very average education (however you choose to define that) who would be universally regarded as professional successes. I know people born with silver spoons in their mouths, the best education money can buy, easing into Oxbridge/Ivy League educations....and having nothing but inherited money, mediocre jobs and severe dysfunction to show for it.

Focus on what you do have. What you don't have is irrelevant.

Having studying Sociology I am aware it is much more complex than this.. many factors are involved. It simply isn't that simple. Just getting a bit fed up of people trying to point to one factor as the cause of inequalities in the system. It is almost like people are blaming people for being poor sometimes

coffeerevelsrule · Today 18:24
"Also you can't really moan about contextualisation at uni entry level and then also moan about blind recruitment at job entry level!

Well I can because as I said, they can cancel each other out. If a state school child works extra hard and then gets a contextualised offer to get to Oxbridge, only to find that's no longer the advantage it once was it's a bit of a bummer isn't it? Both these policies shouldn't be implemented at the same time."

Er, but by that time, the state educated child is 'privileged' having spent three or more years at Oxford. School is largely irrelevant at this point - uni carries much more weight. Should they 'contextualise' the Oxbridge candidate now and give the jobs to people who got a 2.2 from eg. University of Hull because 'they had to work harder for their degree in a more deprived area?'

What age should the contextualisation stop? 22? 32? 70?

You can't go through life blaming the fact you went to a U.K. state school ;like 90% of the population) for everything! People come here from all over the world, frim far more deprived places, and they make a success of their lives.

I thought people wanted to go to Oxbridge because of the quality of education, rather than how it looks on their CV. Shows what I know!

The issue with education is say you had all the same schools, all state, no private ect.
Soon as lessons begin, some students will be great at x subjects, some will be ok some will need extra help.
That's inside the classes.

Then outside school various parents will hire tutors, or use YouTube or Google to help their children learn and achieve greatness or at least be better.

Oh no it is definitely a status thing.. I support students through the UCAS process where I work, and every year young people are applying for Oxbridge for status or because their parents are pushing them... sometimes depending on what they want to do Oxbridge is not the best choice either yet still they want it.

@Ladybowes
Education can and never will be truly equal basically due to the way humans are and how we learn.

I do agree that Oxbridge at times is more the name on the cv, rather than weather it's the best university for x person.

YABU if you only just realised this. But he is far from disadvantaged. Where you go to uni is of minimal importance in my experience and I have a very well paid good job

Yes this may be true but at least we have children in schools with better resources. I would like to thing all schools would improve if private schools etc were abolished as more people would complain and not stand for some of the rubbish that currently goes on in state schools. For example, maybe all children could be taught in classes of 15 like in private schools imagine how that would help every child - may be I am idealistic - but I would like to see this happen.

@GoodChat they do! (I know you know!) The qualities that get dc into Oxbridge are the qualities that will probably help them succeed in their chosen profession. Which may be well paid or it may not -a large number of Oxbridge grads end up in healthcare , education or research - so not that well paid or prestigious. But presumably happy and fulfilled and using their hard earned degree.

Where have I said I'm assuming all parents whose dc went to fee paying schools can afford to support them through internships etc? I said a few posts in that I realised that wealth was more of a factor than schooling, though in many cases the two are of course strongly correlated. And I really wish people would stop assuming I'm saying to ds everything I say on here. Obviously I'm not - the point of the thread isn't for me to come on and repeat everything I've already said to him. What an odd assumption.

I also agree with the pp who said some of these posts amount to blaming people for being poor and I would also say there's an attitude that there should in no way be an attempt to make societies fairer - there's lots of talking about how superior some parents are for the choices they have made and implied criticism of others who've chosen differently and no awareness that children should not have to suffer for this. Some people seem to see the world in a very black and white way - others are worse off therefore you should in no way complain about inequalities that do exist and do affect your own life.

I'll of course be encouraging ds to research further, to keep working hard and valuing his own strengths and to find productive ways around the hurdles he will face. I'm actually capable of doing that while at the same time continuing to believe there is an inherent unfairness at play.

But does not mean we should not try and make things fairer. As someone who is neurodiverse I get this more than anyone but things can be done. Talk like this is a way of excusing people from trying.

Wee bit naïve, @GoodChat. The educational opportunities at Oxford and Cambridge can be stupendous, but I’d be surprised if most prospective students weren’t fully aware that an Oxbridge degree might be advantageous for the rest of their life. (Not always in the most obvious ways.) It’s definitely a fun thing to have on your CV.