To be outraged about fee-paying schools and social inequality?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I have a ds in Y11 who has been researching potential careers and degrees and it has brought home to me what a horribly unequal society we still have in this country. Apparently 70% of barristers went to public school and there are similar stats for other desirable non-stem roles like journalism and the civil service, as well as medicine. It's a bloody disgrace - what a joke for a supposedly modern society.

And it seems that certain schemes like blind recruitment might also feed into this as although going to Oxbridge might have become slightly more attainable recently thanks to contextual offers and an awareness that those institutions shouldn't be filled with people from certain schools, now blind recruitment means the advantage a state school student may have got from going there is pretty much cancelled out.

To me it seems that ds is most disadvantaged in a way as he wouldn't qualify for schemes aimed at people who are the first in their families to go to uni and we aren't in a deprived area, but he has none of the advantages that would have come from going to an independent school. Everything about us is just average!

He is very bright (predicted all 9s and got that in his mocks) and wants to achieve but it seems that the odds are against people like him having prestigious roles. Obviously when he is quoting these stats at me I'm telling him not to be defeatist and that he has every chance of doing something amazing as long as he keeps working hard, but inside I'm wondering if how true that is.

I've always been against fee-paying schools but him reeling off all these stats at me has just been sickening and yet when Labour make noises about doing something about it there's outrage when in my opinion there should be daily outrage about the current situation.

Can anyone who cares about fairness honestly say I'm BU?

Wouldn’t be nice to live in a country with good enough schools that private schools were surplus to requirements?

We live in a monarchy ruled by people who literally think they were appointed by their god to the position. They have obscene wealth and do not even pay tax. And thats just the top level, don't forget about all the landed gentry lackeys under them. Fee paying schools is barely scratching the surface of the mandated inequality in this country.

Wouldn’t be nice to live in a country with good enough schools that private schools were surplus to requirements?

But OP's child is getting 9's across the board, so surely these schools do exist

As dm used to say "life's not fair " it's always going to be weighted on those able to spend a lot of dosh on their child's education and all the networking that goes with it.my own ds went to a boys school missed the 11 plus,went to a good school,did a levels and now qualified at a rs group uni .with a masters in a stem subject. Good job .its always been thus .just concentrate on your boy .I'm sure he will do well

Do those stats cover the whole age range of the profession? People in their 50s/60s who trained when things really were a lot less equal? It would be interesting to look at the data for early career professionals. But no need to be defeatist - loads of info out there now for bright motivated students as long as they can shake any chips off their shoulders.

Okay but if you look at it from a different angle - 30% of students weren't at that advantage so why can't your son be part of that statistic?

My DC secured a very prestigious Level 6 apprenticeship and didn't have any of those advantages. I think you are being unreasonable. If parents can afford to help their kids level up they will. Society has always been like this.

He'll be more affected by your woe is me, glass half empty mentality. Nobody has an easy ride through life but some people have inbuilt privilege. Moaning about it won't help him, but giving him the oomph, drive and resilience to be the best he can will come from you.

Agreed that the playing field is very uneven - the attempts to level it through contextual offers have made it better for those with FSM/first generation university/post code but in many ways this just leaves out the middle group and those who don't get that far to be offered the advantages. I don't know what at the answer is.

So basically your very bright, university focussed, male child who has supportive parents is at a disadvantage - is that really what you're saying?

This!

@Gruelle is spot on - having money makes it much easier to start some careers. Being a barrister is obviously one as it can take a long time to start seeing cash coming in. I would expect journalism to be similar. Anything that requires unpaid internships also fits.

Yes, it's more about wealth inequality than just about the schools. I suppose they are just a symptom really. It's disgusting that jobs are basically open only to those who can afford them - madness.

For people saying he will get there if he works hard, it's not the case. He could get all the qualifications and then just not be able to afford to do the necessary work experience, and that's not fair.

I absolutely don't resent anyone's contextual offer or the other schemes to help the really disadvantaged into uni.

If your ds is getting all 9s then surely he's at a great school for him!

Also if your DS doesn’t have a disability and is white (I of course don’t know if he does/is)he will he at a further advantage.

I think you can only encourage him to do his best. The dominance of private schools/Oxbridge in perceived elite professions is diminishing as far as I can see. DD2 attended an insight day at a magic circle law firm a couple of weeks ago and only one student in her cohort was from Oxbridge.

So there has been progress I think. Still a way to go, but hopefully it’s happening.

I think your ds's figures are misleading. 70 % of Judges went to private school but at barrister level it is more like 50%. For medicine, it is 22% of medical undergrads who went to private school, the 70% figure is taken from a non specified group of 'top' doctors. Given the punishing nature of medicine many women do not reach the heights of 'top' doctor (assuming they mean specialist surgeons and the like), but remain Associate Specialists or GP's. Which skews the figures.
And it's 50% of 'leading print journalists' attending private school, so again a small and skewed sample.
Of course he will do well with high grade predictions and supportive parents- it is defeatist of him to think he wont. But there will always be people 'better' in some form in all professions and some who have had many advantages.
My ds was showing me a hilarious LinkedIn profile of a 17 year old who had already had about 5 'internships' in various (family) businesses. But do you really think prospective employers can't see through this? If your ds works hard and is focussed on what he wants he will be able to compete with the best - ds is a state educated kid at Oxford in the top 10 of his year in his subject with one internship under his belt and a second paid one this summer. It is his drive and ambition that have got him to where he is. (And supportive parents!)

I know that. That's why I've posted this on here rather than saying it to him. Also hoping people will point out valid arguments I can make to him to, which a few people have.

YABVU. My friend is a divorced single mother who went to uni as a mature student. She had to get a pupillage in another city as she couldn't get one where she lived, but was fortunate in having a dm who helped look after her dc. It was a struggle with low pay initially but she ended up with her own practice and recently retired with several millions in assets.

Just quoting stats is a nonsense unless you analyse them too.
You should also look at the degrees with the highest paid jobs - IT and Engineering figure prominently.

I sent my dc to independent schools because we lived in a rural area and the nearest state school was a failing one. We gave up a lot to afford the fees. One dc is in a highly paid job while the other decided to do something creative that they enjoy but isn't particularly well paid.

Stop blaming independent schools for inequality. We are not all born with equal abilities or equally supportive annd interested families. Prestige and money isn't everything in life.

Also hoping people will point out valid arguments I can make to him to

Are really struggling to motivate your own son?

@coffeerevelsrule
The thing is, under the current system, even if everyone had the same starting position, their will always be some that will be better , or wiser, ect. Then before long society will be a mix.

Most parents value their children more than anything else in the world. Most parents work to buy their children advantages. Society can never change this. It's too ingrained.
If private schools were banned, people would buy tutors. If tutors were banned, people would buy online classes. Or driving lessons or PhDs or call in favours for internships, or get their children on the building site they work on, or in the family business. And it was ever thus. And unless we start removing kids at birth, it always will be.

Surely one of the reasons people send their kids to private school is precisely because those institutions are overrepresented among prestigious professions. It's self-fulfilling.

He’ll do just fine. Employers need bright, motivated people and he sounds great!

As others have said, there are a few areas where it’s helpful to have parental support in early low paid years (arts, journalism, the bar) but although those are high profile there are many, many, many other sorts of jobs.

And someone made a great point upthread about simplistic stats that don’t take into account how professions are evolving; the same is true for gender and ethnicity and there’s a time lag as society changes.

A perfect example, I always said you can have all the same schools, ect but the way humans are, some will struggle, some excell, and some achieve greatness etc

many of those professions require unpaid internships which is really only open to those lucky kids whose parents either live in London or another major city.. Or else can afford to pay rent & cost of living for the child.. Journalism & the media are notorious for unpaid internships & nepotism to get one in the first instance.. I agree it's very unfair.

Say you have several families with roughly the same disposable income.

One family chooses to spend it on a bigger house in a more desirable location.

Another family chooses to spend it on foreign holidays every year.

Another just fritters it away buying Stuff they don't need.

Another one spends it on booze and gambling.

And another family chooses to spend it on supporting their child to get a start in his/her chosen profession.

And that's the choice that's Not Fair.

So what's the solution?

In the nicest possible way we become more aware when things affect us directly.
I'd guess her son is actively thinking about options and careers.
My friend had a stroke and now uses a mobility scooter. Another friend has just had a baby. Now we notice the state of the pavements and inconsiderate parking.

I’m not even sure it is private school so much as family money and connections. I would bet that a working class scholarship kid at Eton has less chance of a glittering career than an investment banker’s son at a highly selective grammar, who is then parachuted into a job with one of daddy’s friends.