To be outraged about fee-paying schools and social inequality?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I have a ds in Y11 who has been researching potential careers and degrees and it has brought home to me what a horribly unequal society we still have in this country. Apparently 70% of barristers went to public school and there are similar stats for other desirable non-stem roles like journalism and the civil service, as well as medicine. It's a bloody disgrace - what a joke for a supposedly modern society.

And it seems that certain schemes like blind recruitment might also feed into this as although going to Oxbridge might have become slightly more attainable recently thanks to contextual offers and an awareness that those institutions shouldn't be filled with people from certain schools, now blind recruitment means the advantage a state school student may have got from going there is pretty much cancelled out.

To me it seems that ds is most disadvantaged in a way as he wouldn't qualify for schemes aimed at people who are the first in their families to go to uni and we aren't in a deprived area, but he has none of the advantages that would have come from going to an independent school. Everything about us is just average!

He is very bright (predicted all 9s and got that in his mocks) and wants to achieve but it seems that the odds are against people like him having prestigious roles. Obviously when he is quoting these stats at me I'm telling him not to be defeatist and that he has every chance of doing something amazing as long as he keeps working hard, but inside I'm wondering if how true that is.

I've always been against fee-paying schools but him reeling off all these stats at me has just been sickening and yet when Labour make noises about doing something about it there's outrage when in my opinion there should be daily outrage about the current situation.

Can anyone who cares about fairness honestly say I'm BU?

Also charm / attractiveness / likeability/ good social / interview skills will get you very very far in life these characteristics are not evenly distributed or school specific.

I do believe things are becoming fairer. Many internships are now paid, ds's was paid 'expenses' in his second year internship (and lived at home and commuted) and so I just bought additional food for the summer. He had some savings from previous summer jobs. His 3rd year internship is obscenely well paid because that's where companies often recruit their graduates from. I think the days of unpaid internships (certainly in STEM and business) are at an end. So should be more accessible.

That's understandable, but then as it's part of a capitalist society that's what you get with the system, and with the stock market, (basically the world's largest casino) then it will be a mix.

Advantage in life always has and always will be handed down through the generations. We’re all still fighting our way up or down the snakes and ladders board, we just don’t all start in the same place.

You’re not failing as a person or a parent just because you don’t move from the bottom to the top in one generation. It’s a multigenerational game.

My DC have all been through the independent system (scholarships/bursaries helped a lot), and there is no chance in hell of them being able to do unpaid work. Whatever money I had has long since gone on school fees, which I'm still paying off, having put a large amount on credit cards in the end. So don't assume that all children who go to independent schools are oh so rich and privileged. In fact, that lazy assumption really, really pisses me off.

You could also say it's disgusting that a decent state education is only available to people who can afford to pay £1m for a house in a nice area with lots of other nice, aspirational middle-class people.

It’s not just the very wealthy who can support.

If I look at the parents of children at my nearest private some work 2 jobs (both parents), some work 8-3pm and pick up at 6pm and work again until late and start again the next day, some have grandparents who pay for it and that’s their inheritance. Your blanket assumption is ridiculous. The majority of parents are working their arses off to pay for it.. hence the predicted large drop off rate of enrolment if labour bring in a 20% VAT charge.

if you weren’t a single parent, and your husband supported you, and you chose to work 2 jobs each and you chose not to spend 3k on holidays.. could you afford it? Probably. Would you choose to? Maybe now looking at some selective stats, but would you have chosen to forgo your holidays for it before seeing the stats ?

people spend their money on what they see fit. Don’t have a whinge and put others down who made that their priority; they’re likely losing out on things you take for granted.

I fall in the camp that can work up to 14-18 hours in a day with 3 kids. My husband does the same. We’re doing it for our choice of house, and our children’s education. I often don’t get to spend as much time with them as I’d like but they love their school and that was the choice we made.

BMW6 · Today 17:06
Well just how would you equalise Life OP?

Obviously not just for the benefit of your sons particular situation, because that would be incredibly selfish.....

I would also like to know the answer to this. Any thoughts, op?

BTW, my ex husband was a barrister and most of my friends are barristers. They all went to redbrick universities (not Oxbridge). Some went to independent schools, and others didn't. Nobody cares by the time you're an adult.

And as for you spending 3k per year on holidays and managing to put aside 1k in savings: my mind can only boggle at that. I haven't been on holiday since I started with school fees when my DC were five.

The thing about barristers OP is that you are self-employed and earn a pittance at the beginning. Do you recall that they went on strike at the beginning of the year? Low
pay was one of the reasons with junior barristers often earning much less than minimum wage. That means you need family to support you in the early years so those from lower income backgrounds are majorly disadvantaged. There are lots of solicitors from working class backgrounds. I am one of them. Former free school meals girl who is now a senior lawyer for a huge global company.

If many state schools were not so poor in terms of behaviour as well as academically, people would not feel they have no choice other than to scrimp and save to afford a fee-paying school.

I love to hear about people like you who worked hard and has done well ☺️

Your son comes from a supportive household and predicted straight 9s.

If you'd paid for his education then he'd still be from a supportive household and predicted straight 9s.

Yabu to think he's disadvantaged. With the 2 main advantages that he has, he has every chance of being a state school educated barrister/medic/whatever.

My kids went to the local comp and achieved good qualifications etc and I see and hear of kids where there are proper hurdles to a happy life and success. For example my son has a friend whose parents have been in and out of prison pretty much his whole life. When he was in primary school, his dad's mugshot was plastered on the front page of the local paper. It's amazing that he was able to continue to go to school never mind so A-levels and go to university. Him and his siblings have had a chaotic upbringing with different family carers and foster families but he's going to do great. He was actually in the school newsletter photographed with the KC that they'd had in as a careers guest. Some kids are just going to be fine regardless of the easier ride that others have.

I suspect that things are even more extreme in places like the US hence everyone chasing Ivy League spaces. At least in the UK they don't need extra curriculars and the right expensive summer schools to get a spot at a top uni. Even if 99% were public school educated, what kind of people do you think that 1% are like ? Stellar grades like your son.

Agreed.

Your son needs to work a lot harder at maths and googling.

67 % of Oxbridge entrants, 49 % of the UK top 100 Journalists, 79% of criminal lawyers, 81 % of solicitors, 71 % of doctors, were state educated.

If he’s achieving high grades I don’t think the careers you mention are out of his reach

OP, it sounds like you are moaning about independent schools on one hand, but then also moaning about contextualisation at uni entry.

Also you can't really moan about contextualisation at uni entry level and then also moan about blind recruitment at job entry level!

You're being unreasonable because you are misinformed. By your son.

Is he considering university? With all grade 9s he must be a prospect for the top unis including Oxbridge. If he has a degree from Oxbridge or a prestigious course from another top uni I dont think he will be at all disadvantaged in the workplace except perhaps for one or two businesses who want to recruit a certain ‘type’ only but there won’t be many of these. These prejudices have always existed. They were around when I was a student and chose an elitist degree subject that was full of ex public school pupils (I was in the minority from a state school). However, that was partly because high grades were needed for entry to the course and such grades were more likely to be achieved by those from top public schools. If anything your DS will stand out more to future employers by having attained top grades from a state school so don’t be disheartened or let him be dishearted by statistics. Many employers now want greater diversity in their workforce.

You have a system like in the divergent film series where people are pre assigned based on their skill sets and strengths etc

With top grades the top universities will still be within grasp. From there he can access graduate opportunities.

I don’t think the op’s dc is in a bad place private or state

Also you can't really moan about contextualisation at uni entry level and then also moan about blind recruitment at job entry level!

Well I can because as I said, they can cancel each other out. If a state school child works extra hard and then gets a contextualised offer to get to Oxbridge, only to find that's no longer the advantage it once was it's a bit of a bummer isn't it? Both these policies shouldn't be implemented at the same time.

Well people from fee-paying jobs are definitely disproportionately represented in the most prestigious careers, but I certainly accept that the stats are likely skewed by age, which is good.

I can't believe you're a teacher and only just realizing this.

Is your son white? Able-bodied? Does he have special needs? Does he have a stable roof over his head? Is he well fed? Does he have a chronic illness? Does he struggle with mental health issues?

The only thing you need to be telling your son is that he should count his blessings because compared to many, many people all the world over, he was born into privilege. The only one that's lacking is wealth. And if he chooses to focus on what he doesn't have rather than what he does have, forget the disservice he'd be doing to other people - he'd be letting himself down.

Get a grip, woman.

Equalising the education would be a start...but people are too selfish for that - as they fear it will impact on their children.

Anybody who pushes their child to Oxbridge because of the work opportunities it would offer them is missing the point entirely.

These institutions offer amongst the best educations available anywhere in the world (depending on the discipline). There is absolutely NOT a straight line between education and career success / good earnings. Education has intrinsic value. Contrary to what New Labour had us believe, it's not a consumable that necessarily and always open doors to a better future. The sooner your son appreciates this, the better for him.