Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why so anti drag?

319 replies

nicetoseetgesunsout · 10/04/2023 16:44

I've just watched the Paul oGrady tribute programme and it brought me to tears.
He did so much for children and their families and for so so many animals, plus against social injustice for gay people and anti section 28, not being scared to raise its injustice on mainstream tv.
My 75yr old mum is very upset about his passing.
Why the hate for drag performers?
My children grew up with Boy George,Marilyn and Leigh Bowrie RIP as they are friends. My children (boy and girl, now a woman and a man) always knew that they were, and are, men and saw them without costume wigs and makeup.
I'm also friends with a married couple who were drag queens a long time ago. My children have always known that these guys are men, dressing up as women, as they liked to and it was entertainment.
No offence meant to women. They saw them dressed as their drag persona but also without costume and mostly as men.
One couple of ex drag queens I know are now a Director for a hospice and his husband is a social work manager. Reputable jobs, no desire to be women and have two cats who are their babies. Lovely men.
Pantos have always had men playing women but we all know that they're men. Shakespeare plays had men playing women - that's more offensive to me.
Female authors like SE Sinton wrote and published amazing books without her obviously female first names - as she couldn't get published otherwise. These upset me much more

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
StaunchMomma · 10/04/2023 21:51

Yeah, I don't get it either.

The whole 'woman face' thing seems like reaching to take offence, to me.

Hazymaze · 10/04/2023 21:51

I personally find it grotesque. It's just generally the concept and aesthetic of it that makes me queasy.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 10/04/2023 21:52

StaunchMomma · 10/04/2023 21:51

Yeah, I don't get it either.

The whole 'woman face' thing seems like reaching to take offence, to me.

OK - why isn’t blackface OK? In a nutshell?

Fairislefandango · 10/04/2023 21:54

I think it’s a lot of people getting offended for the sake of being offended.

What does that even mean? If someone finds something offensive, they find it offensive.

LexMitior · 10/04/2023 21:57

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/04/2023 21:49

Drag is, at heart, men dressing as women.

It therefore cannot exist without gendered expectations of men and women. So whether it's enforcing them or subverting them, it's ultimately an artform predicated on sexism.

From the male perspective, it's subverting society's expectations of men/masculinity, and in its original incarnation as an artform from gay culture it was also embracing and reclaiming the stereotype that gay men are effeminate.

But from the female perspective, it's using women's lives, bodies and stories as a raw material for men to use. We aren't participants. We might (in some acts at least) be being celebrated but it's still men deciding how we are portrayed and what's important to say about us. It's just the same old "woman as the passive subject/muse of the male artist" that we've been relegated to forever.

Great post.

Americano75 · 10/04/2023 22:00

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/04/2023 21:49

Drag is, at heart, men dressing as women.

It therefore cannot exist without gendered expectations of men and women. So whether it's enforcing them or subverting them, it's ultimately an artform predicated on sexism.

From the male perspective, it's subverting society's expectations of men/masculinity, and in its original incarnation as an artform from gay culture it was also embracing and reclaiming the stereotype that gay men are effeminate.

But from the female perspective, it's using women's lives, bodies and stories as a raw material for men to use. We aren't participants. We might (in some acts at least) be being celebrated but it's still men deciding how we are portrayed and what's important to say about us. It's just the same old "woman as the passive subject/muse of the male artist" that we've been relegated to forever.

👏 👏

midgemadgemodge · 10/04/2023 22:03

StaunchMomma · 10/04/2023 21:51

Yeah, I don't get it either.

The whole 'woman face' thing seems like reaching to take offence, to me.

It's trying to understand why black face is bad and woman face is good

It's the same behaviour / a charicature of an oppressed group

DannyZukosSmile · 10/04/2023 22:04

StaunchMomma · 10/04/2023 21:51

Yeah, I don't get it either.

The whole 'woman face' thing seems like reaching to take offence, to me.

Yeah, be quiet, you silly hysterical whingey wimmin. Hmm How DARE you be offended at men taking the piss out of - and mocking and mimicking women? We must sit and be quiet, and not complain, and above all #BEKIND

BMW6 · 10/04/2023 22:27

JimmyDurham · 10/04/2023 21:44

I don't understand the anti-drag attitude either (other than some people just hate to see other people enjoying themselves).

In its day the Black and White Minstrel Show was incredibly popular. I know, I was old enough to watch it and think it was wrong.
When it was taken off lots of people said exactly what you said! Were they wrong to bin it? Can you not conceive that YOU may be out of step?

tiggergoesbounce · 10/04/2023 23:06

I personally do not like drag.
I think if it is to exist, it is only to exist as adult entertainment.

Murdoch1949 · 11/04/2023 05:19

I don't think it's anti drag, it's the specific type of drag shows that are sexualised and being targeted at audiences that include parents with young children and sometimes school groups. They are sometimes linked to the highly politicised minority transwomen community, who are attacking all forms of women and their safe spaces - cloakrooms, changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, refuges, rape crisis support, sports etc.

Fruitandbarley1 · 11/04/2023 05:53

It's such a boring debate, the use of the word womanface is laughable, it's people who are offended by every little thing.
There will be a small number of drag performers who set out to degrade women, just like there will be a small number of people in every subculture who have negative intentions, that's life. It's ridiculous to tar every drag queen with the same brush.

Fruitandbarley1 · 11/04/2023 05:56

A lot of drag queens are bald, bearded, keep their body hair, etc. They don't model themselves on women, they have their own sort of conceptualised drag which is nothing to do with appearing like a woman. See Danny Beard, or Milk.

Fruitandbarley1 · 11/04/2023 05:57

Cheddar Gorgeous, or Joe Black.

Happylittlechicken · 11/04/2023 06:31

Fruitandbarley1 · 11/04/2023 05:53

It's such a boring debate, the use of the word womanface is laughable, it's people who are offended by every little thing.
There will be a small number of drag performers who set out to degrade women, just like there will be a small number of people in every subculture who have negative intentions, that's life. It's ridiculous to tar every drag queen with the same brush.

Why? Would you feel the sane if someone decided to dress up as a Native American and mock them? Or dress as. Chinese person and portray them using offensive stereotypes? Why is it ok to mock women but no other group?

Fruitandbarley1 · 11/04/2023 06:54

They're not mocking women...
A small number are, that's all.
A small number of any group will be racist, homophobic and so on.
You really can't think every single drag artist is doing it with the purpose to mock women.
A lot of these men have been rejected by their own families for being gay and doing drag.

Bloopsie · 11/04/2023 07:00

I would not call it hate just dislike. I dont see the point of it and the enterainment value. Its like the Dylan guy on Twitter/Insta etc who got the Nike contract for sport bra advert, men acting like women, in some cases taking employment away from women, entering places where women can be vulnerable etc noup not my thing to encourage.

Happylittlechicken · 11/04/2023 07:01

So they take their trauma out in women? Would you feel the sane if they locked disabled people or other races? Why does sexism get a pass when racism does not?

maddening · 11/04/2023 07:09

FactsAreNotMean · 10/04/2023 16:53

A lot of the issues people have with drag at the moment are to do with inappropriate performances being targeted at children. There have been a variety of drag queen story times with performers in highly sexualised outfits, then there was the cavababarave which had drag performers in bondage style clothing.

I'm not a fan of drag in general but performances for adults, fine, I just wouldn't choose to see it. The performances for children are far more concerning and often inappropriate. I'm sure other posters will have videos and images of some of the incidents I'm talking about.

It is this imo, plus the trans movement seems to be pushing this agenda - TRAs seem to see the push against drag Queens wearing highliy sexualised outfits to pre-school reading sessions and even performing x rated drag acts for children as "transphobic".

vinividivinci · 11/04/2023 07:32

I think the style of 'drag' the P O' G represented was comedy or old style variety acting. It was popular in some pubs and WMC and the character would dress glamorously, tell jokes, rib the audience and sometimes sing.

There may have been some association with the gay scene, but men dressed as women and women dressed as men (or more commonly boys), were popular acts in the old music halls at a time when being overtly gay was not only taboo, but also illegal. The acts were 'mainstream' but possibly in a bawdy and not really child-friendly way.

Additionally, the 'bitchy', but funny 'camp' characters, with scripts seeped in innuendo were popularised by Julian and Sandy in the radio series 'Round the Horne' which had its heyday just as homosexuality became legal (around 1967). The show also popularised Polari, a secret language or 'cant' associated with gay men, fairground workers and the theatre.

Ru Paul's Drag Race also contains some words from Polari and has its own slang or argot. Yet, in my opinion, one of the differences between the type of drag act presented on the Drag Race and the drag acts of old, is that it has difficulty finding its place in society.

That is to say, Lily Savage and Julian and Sandy were characters that emerged as gay rights were being openly discussed. The characters , began to fade as sexuality began to be understood and accepted, and as a move away from the 'camp' stereotypes of gay men and 'bitchy' stereotypes of gay men, and women began.

Now, the drag queens seem to be creative masterpieces, perfect for a heavily visual world, but the overt sexualisation seems out of place in a society that already accepts, and the bitchiness seems to be a step back to old stereotypes of gay men/straight women, and without the humour that once accompanied it, it seems to be a very negative stereotype.

I am not anti-drag. I appreciate the genre and its history, but in my opinion, in general it has lost its way, and moved away from the humour that once defined it.

midgemadgemodge · 11/04/2023 07:34

Is it really just a small number ?

I have yet to see a show advertised locally that doesn't have a name that doesn't imply laughing at womens expense

The whole drag race has I think finally started to avoid the fishy comments as they realised it was more than a bit difficult to justify

Also I don't believe that most of the black and white minstrels or morris dancers were raciest and morris blacking was culturally nothing to do with black people yet it's ok to be offended there ?

There is a parallel there - women get upset and point out mysogenistic attitudes are ignored and belittled ( just like women who suffer DV and rape at the hands of our police ) Our society is too mysogenistic to even recognise it for what it is

Matchymatchylemonscratchy · 11/04/2023 07:46

Well, I’m not ok with the gender stereotypes and the misogynistic slurs many drag queens use now. And I don’t believe they have any place around children.

Other that if you want to wear a dress and make up, knock yourself out (as long as you stay out of our sport, toilets, prisons and shelters).

chocolateisavegetable · 11/04/2023 07:59

Fruitandbarley1 · 11/04/2023 05:56

A lot of drag queens are bald, bearded, keep their body hair, etc. They don't model themselves on women, they have their own sort of conceptualised drag which is nothing to do with appearing like a woman. See Danny Beard, or Milk.

👏👏👏

Hoppinggreen · 11/04/2023 08:07

Botw1 · 10/04/2023 21:34

The other thing I dislike about drag is the sexism inherent in celebrating the 'talent'

When men dress up as women all of a sudden putting on make up and wearing heels is amazing and a skill and a talent. Fawned over

Men dancing in high heels, omg, never seen the like. How talented are they?

Ummmmm....

I agree.
I was at a major shopping centre last year one Sunday afternoon and for some reason they decided a drag show was a good idea. 3 men in high heels and sparkly dresses were gyrating down an escalator and I wondered why it was any more impressive than 3 women doing the same.

Bloopsie · 11/04/2023 08:23

Hoppinggreen · 11/04/2023 08:07

I agree.
I was at a major shopping centre last year one Sunday afternoon and for some reason they decided a drag show was a good idea. 3 men in high heels and sparkly dresses were gyrating down an escalator and I wondered why it was any more impressive than 3 women doing the same.

Haha… yea if it was women giving a cabare show in the middle of the day in a family orientated shopping centre it would not even be considered.

but as long as they are men different story

we planned a daytrip out to alnwick castle last summer,evening before xhexked their website and there was drag fashion show on right in the middle of the day, we didnt go obviously and looking at the photos afterwards we totally made the right decision- my young children or my own eyes would not have appreciated the sight of men in mini skirts in strings and topless flashing their bums ..barf.

Swipe left for the next trending thread