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Original poster

Why so anti drag?

319 replies

nicetoseetgesunsout · 10/04/2023 16:44

I've just watched the Paul oGrady tribute programme and it brought me to tears.
He did so much for children and their families and for so so many animals, plus against social injustice for gay people and anti section 28, not being scared to raise its injustice on mainstream tv.
My 75yr old mum is very upset about his passing.
Why the hate for drag performers?
My children grew up with Boy George,Marilyn and Leigh Bowrie RIP as they are friends. My children (boy and girl, now a woman and a man) always knew that they were, and are, men and saw them without costume wigs and makeup.
I'm also friends with a married couple who were drag queens a long time ago. My children have always known that these guys are men, dressing up as women, as they liked to and it was entertainment.
No offence meant to women. They saw them dressed as their drag persona but also without costume and mostly as men.
One couple of ex drag queens I know are now a Director for a hospice and his husband is a social work manager. Reputable jobs, no desire to be women and have two cats who are their babies. Lovely men.
Pantos have always had men playing women but we all know that they're men. Shakespeare plays had men playing women - that's more offensive to me.
Female authors like SE Sinton wrote and published amazing books without her obviously female first names - as she couldn't get published otherwise. These upset me much more

OP posts:
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6
RufustheSpeculatingreindeer · 10/04/2023 21:11

newname

some do and some probably don’t

but to me it would be the same as any ‘entertainer’ that does adult entertainment

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 10/04/2023 21:11

But this all comes down to your perception that they are mocking women. Would it be ok for a black, gay man to dress like a women then because they are more oppressed?

Youre not getting it.

Black men are still men and therefore are still oppressors of women. So no it wouldn’t be OK.

Also I thought men and women could dress how they like and it’s fine because clothes are meaningless and gender is a social construct?

What have I said that suggests anything different?

You could argue that GC people should love drag as it is the opposite of trans. You do realise that if drag was more acceptable, fewer men would need to say they are trans, potentially.

It isn’t the opposite of trans at all. It reinforces stereotypes, mocks the class it oppresses and uses damaging stereotypes as humour.

You’re taking the Pisa though to say fewer trans people would be trans if they could be drag queens. Drag is a job, an entertainment, an industry, not an identity.

Why isn’t blackface OK? Explain to me.

PelvicFlora · 10/04/2023 21:11

The majority of people are trying to increase trans rights to help trans people cope in society

What does this mean though?

Someone is so delusional/disassociated/immersed paraphilia that they believe themselves to be the opposite sex, and society's reaction to them is a constant reminder that they are deluded/disassociated/paraphillic and that makes them unable to remain immersed in their delusion/disassociation/paraphilia.

I don't think society needs to change in order to collude with the D/D/P. I think the thing to address is the D/D/P in the first place.

WifeMotherWorker · 10/04/2023 21:12

I hate drag acts. It’s an unflattering, over exaggerated, sexist parody of womankind.
why anyone would think this adult entertainment is suitable for kids is unbelievable!!

quietnightmare · 10/04/2023 21:14

Shakespeare plays had men playing women - that's more offensive to me.

Urmmm because it was illegal for women to perform on the stages where Shakespeare plays we're performed

Americano75 · 10/04/2023 21:15

PelvicFlora · 10/04/2023 21:02

Until about 10 years ago, drag was about sticking two fingers up to homophobia and celebrating male femininity. Likewise, artists such as David Bowie, Marilyn, and Boy George (who, don't forget, served prison time for kidnapping a male prostitute, so let's not hold him up as some paragon of gender-bending virtue - he was a sexual predator) all helped to kick against the gendered stereotypes that would serve to keep us all in our boxes.

Great. All for that.

However, contemporary drag punches down on women. It makes them the butt of the joke. It's cruel, it's hostile, it's coded misogyny, it takes stereotypes of femininity and parodies them to the point where it reads as contempt. It's hyper-sexualised. POG and Dame EE, et al did big hair, sequins and glam, but they never did enormous tits or called themselves 'fishy'. They were funny, sardonic, incisive, political, they had something to say and a point to make.

Drag queens today seem to just get up on stage wearing as little as possible in front of an audience (preferably including underage children) and shriek, "Well it's not going to suck itself darling!"

I don't know who drag is for these days, but it's not for gay men and it's certainly not for women. So who does that leave...?

Could not have put it better.

When I was a child, there wasn't drag as such but female impersonators. This new generation of drag is often vile, mocking and misogynistic.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 10/04/2023 21:15

quietnightmare · 10/04/2023 21:14

Shakespeare plays had men playing women - that's more offensive to me.

Urmmm because it was illegal for women to perform on the stages where Shakespeare plays we're performed

Exactly 🤣 the wonderful irony of being pro-drag and using one of the oldest forms of sexist oppression to illustrate your point.

Theluggage15 · 10/04/2023 21:17

@quietnightmare Found that the most bizarre thing in the OP. Being angry at Shakespeare!!

RufustheSpeculatingreindeer · 10/04/2023 21:19

Theluggage15 · 10/04/2023 21:17

@quietnightmare Found that the most bizarre thing in the OP. Being angry at Shakespeare!!

Oh my goodness 😳

i missed that bit 😀

suzyscat · 10/04/2023 21:27

For me it's the punching up/ punching down issue.

There have been many drag acts I've loved over the years. POG is the example of one who if felt like was celebrating women. It was funny but more reverent. A lot of drag acts just feel misogynistic though and can feel like hyper sexualised brutal punching down. They ridicule our bodies, their functions and vulnerabilities and it's rather unpleasant.

By the by, People are very quick to say gender critical feminists are close minded, but it's clearly the reverse. Gender is the social construct of femininity and masculinity. Drag and trans ideology upholds those stereotypes, it's GC feminists that want to break them down.

littlefirecar · 10/04/2023 21:30

I see drag as high camp rather than anything to do with gender or mocking the opposite sex. It comes from the stereotype that gay men are hyper feminine sissies and gay women are butch and manly then reclaiming that through taking it to the extreme.

There are some problematic aspects in modern drag for sure (and I would class the term 'fish' as one of those) but on the whole its done by some of the most warm hearted and talented people you could hope to meet with absolutely no malice or mockery whatsoever.

It's an important part of gay culture and when done well is supposed to be a push back at what society expects men /women to be (if anything I would think GC people should appreciate that 😂)

Botw1 · 10/04/2023 21:34

The other thing I dislike about drag is the sexism inherent in celebrating the 'talent'

When men dress up as women all of a sudden putting on make up and wearing heels is amazing and a skill and a talent. Fawned over

Men dancing in high heels, omg, never seen the like. How talented are they?

Ummmmm....

midgemadgemodge · 10/04/2023 21:35

Black face was an important part of morris culture but that's been deprecated

ImAGoodPerson · 10/04/2023 21:38

WinterTrees · 10/04/2023 17:18

The character of Lily Savage was a strong, sassy older woman that Paul O'Grady based on the women in his family - his mum and his aunties - Scouse women from a certain time who spoke their minds and stood up for themselves when it wasn't easy for women to do that. It was a parody, sure, but one that came from a place of affection and admiration, not objectification or disgust (for women's bodies - hence 'fish' etc) which seems to be the basis of most over-sexualised drag now.

The object of the joke was men not women, which was funnier and less cruel because everyone knew that it was being made by a man. And it was clever and incisive, like all the best comedy, not just shocking or crude.

I think this sums it up so well. There are still many drag acts now that are similar but the most popular type of drag definitely seems to be extreme and often offensive.

I don't see the connection between drag and trans, drag is an act and the men doing it would only be referred to as she/her during the act.

ThereIbledit · 10/04/2023 21:38

It's an important part of gay culture and when done well is supposed to be a push back at what society expects men /women to be (if anything I would think GC people should appreciate that 😂)

Men who want to wear skirts and dresses and make up? Fine.

Men playing let's pretend to be a woman and behaving as a parody? Not fine. HTH.

CurlewKate · 10/04/2023 21:40

One thing I don't understand is why drag and trans have become conflated. They seem to me to be completely unrelated things.

Timesawastin · 10/04/2023 21:42

Yazo · 10/04/2023 16:46

Yeah I don't get it either but I think a lot of it is tied up in anti-trans hate and don't get that either.

Yup. Bigotry and ignorance masquerading as concern for women's rights.

JimmyDurham · 10/04/2023 21:44

I don't understand the anti-drag attitude either (other than some people just hate to see other people enjoying themselves).

midgemadgemodge · 10/04/2023 21:45

How is it bigotted to not want a transwomen in the boxing ring with a woman?

Why did YOU bring the trans discussion into one on drag?

How is it bigotted to disapprove of demeaning language being used against women?

Bigotted to disapprove of one rule for men and one for women when it comes to dress?

RufustheSpeculatingreindeer · 10/04/2023 21:47

you can agree with posters who don’t like drag or not

but they have made it very clear why they don’t like drag

LexMitior · 10/04/2023 21:47

Drag is a character, a performance.

Trans is not a performance, is it?

That is the difference.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 10/04/2023 21:48

JimmyDurham · 10/04/2023 21:44

I don't understand the anti-drag attitude either (other than some people just hate to see other people enjoying themselves).

Yes we are all just jealous 🙄 SUCH a lazy sexist trope. Do better next time.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/04/2023 21:49

Drag is, at heart, men dressing as women.

It therefore cannot exist without gendered expectations of men and women. So whether it's enforcing them or subverting them, it's ultimately an artform predicated on sexism.

From the male perspective, it's subverting society's expectations of men/masculinity, and in its original incarnation as an artform from gay culture it was also embracing and reclaiming the stereotype that gay men are effeminate.

But from the female perspective, it's using women's lives, bodies and stories as a raw material for men to use. We aren't participants. We might (in some acts at least) be being celebrated but it's still men deciding how we are portrayed and what's important to say about us. It's just the same old "woman as the passive subject/muse of the male artist" that we've been relegated to forever.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 10/04/2023 21:49

LexMitior · 10/04/2023 21:47

Drag is a character, a performance.

Trans is not a performance, is it?

That is the difference.

They are both based off depressing sexist stereotypes.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 10/04/2023 21:50

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/04/2023 21:49

Drag is, at heart, men dressing as women.

It therefore cannot exist without gendered expectations of men and women. So whether it's enforcing them or subverting them, it's ultimately an artform predicated on sexism.

From the male perspective, it's subverting society's expectations of men/masculinity, and in its original incarnation as an artform from gay culture it was also embracing and reclaiming the stereotype that gay men are effeminate.

But from the female perspective, it's using women's lives, bodies and stories as a raw material for men to use. We aren't participants. We might (in some acts at least) be being celebrated but it's still men deciding how we are portrayed and what's important to say about us. It's just the same old "woman as the passive subject/muse of the male artist" that we've been relegated to forever.

EXCELLENT post.

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