Why so anti drag?

[nicetoseetgesunsout]

I've just watched the Paul oGrady tribute programme and it brought me to tears.
He did so much for children and their families and for so so many animals, plus against social injustice for gay people and anti section 28, not being scared to raise its injustice on mainstream tv.
My 75yr old mum is very upset about his passing.
Why the hate for drag performers?
My children grew up with Boy George,Marilyn and Leigh Bowrie RIP as they are friends. My children (boy and girl, now a woman and a man) always knew that they were, and are, men and saw them without costume wigs and makeup.
I'm also friends with a married couple who were drag queens a long time ago. My children have always known that these guys are men, dressing up as women, as they liked to and it was entertainment.
No offence meant to women. They saw them dressed as their drag persona but also without costume and mostly as men.
One couple of ex drag queens I know are now a Director for a hospice and his husband is a social work manager. Reputable jobs, no desire to be women and have two cats who are their babies. Lovely men.
Pantos have always had men playing women but we all know that they're men. Shakespeare plays had men playing women - that's more offensive to me.
Female authors like SE Sinton wrote and published amazing books without her obviously female first names - as she couldn't get published otherwise. These upset me much more

Sure, people can express themselves how they like but why pretend to be a woman while doing it?

Creative expression

Of a character that oozes mysogeny

Would you be ok if their character was so obviously hating Jewish people ?

Except the very essence of drag is the caricature of what a woman is in their eyes. Why don't they do caricatures of their own sex? Because doing caricatures of women is "funny" and "amusing" as women are basically put into the "nothing but a sex toy" category.
I've never heard of one that doesn't do a caricature of a woman, over dressed, over made up, over sexualized. Just like how many "men" see us.

So if they want to dress up and paint themselves what can they do to make them not ‘women’?

You do realise that men who do drag are just humans who are very aware what real women are?

I don't see why men who perform drag should be any better at knowing what real women are than the rest of their sex 😂

For clarity, I'm not talking about biology here, but about men's tendency to see and interact with women as stereotypes/what they expect us to be rather than who we really are. Unconscious bias basically,

Yeah just look at these drag queens, mocking and ridiculing women with their 'womanface', you can see the pure hatred and disgust they have towards us and the ridiculous caricatures they've made us into.....

@Fruitandbarley1 actually those are more offensive that what I was envisioning.

I'm sure I've seen drag performers who wear utterly andogrenous costumes, inflated shapes and so on. That's the sort of thing I'd love to see the artform evolve into, the performer creating a live, one person, grotesque or beautiful but more than human spectacle using their body, voice and movement.

As far as I'm concerned, anything that involves a man wearing makeup, dresses/skirts, heels or anything else culturally coded as feminine, or moving in ways that are typically considered girly while portraying a male character with a male body sounds great.

It's when they cross the line and say they are portraying a woman (who is of course not actually a real woman but someone they invented), refer to themselves in character as she and pad their body to represent female I think they move to dodgy ground simply because the cultural context in which it's being done has such a deep history of men silencing, defining and speaking for women that it's almost impossible now for that to be a neutral or benign act.

I think it's also because drag includes improv so it's not just portraying a character that's been written, it is assuming the character, reacting as "she" would. Again it feels like the man taking on an authority about how women think and feel which in reality he does not have. He's never for a second known from the inside how it feel to be going through life as a woman, only observed and assumed from the outside.

I realise this could be an argument for no-one ever making art that is not biographical. I don’t believe that. I think there is space in all art for making art from what you believe us another's perspective. What I'm not convinced about is the benigness of an entire artform whose basis is the single scenario of men portraying their idea of women.

If someone says the police is institutionally racist that can be true whilst we know that not all police are racist

We still know there is a problem and want to fix it

If someone says drag is basically mysogenistic someone says ah but this person is lovely and apparently that's all fine then

Be themselves but dressed up and painted. No need to play a female 'character'.

@Newnamenewname109870 "You do realise that men who do drag are just humans who are very aware what real women are?" That's exciting- so they are not like most men then?

I totally agree. I think it's all wrapped up in in the anti trans movement.
Whoever says woman face can do one it's not offensive any more than for a woman to not wear make up and wear trousers. Is that man face?

Some comments here are very Mumsnet !

Omg no they are not replicating women! They are doing the opposite. This is ridiculous and just a sad waste of time where there are many more actual issues going on in life.

I completely agree. Honestly I’m as feminist as anyone but there’s a point where you’ve got to draw a line and realise that nobody will ever be able to do anything. Man aren’t allowed to wear dresses because thats secretly showing that they hate women. Men can’t talk to women men can’t do anything that involves women because it must mean sexism. It completely ridicules all the valid points feminists make.

Would it be okay then if a woman dressed up as an exaggerated stereotype of an effeminate, camp gay man and made offensive jokes about gay men?

I’m as feminist as anyone

No you're not.

*A lot of the issues people have with drag at the moment are to do with inappropriate performances being targeted at children. There have been a variety of drag queen story times with performers in highly sexualised outfits, then there was the cavababarave which had drag performers in bondage style clothing.

I'm not a fan of drag in general but performances for adults, fine, I just wouldn't choose to see it. The performances for children are far more concerning and often inappropriate. I'm sure other posters will have videos and images of some of the incidents I'm talking about*

This is exactly how I feel.

As 'entertainment for adults I think is a load of mind numbing shite, but as long as it's not out and put misogynistic, then fine, whatever floats your boat.

It's not for kids, and anyone who thinks it is I find seriously creepy and I'd be questioning their safeguarding and boundaries.

@Newnamenewname109870

You're really not a feminist

You sound like every other whiny man moaning they can't be as sexist as they like, stamping feet cause its not fair.

I notice no one has answered why black face isn't ok.

The difference is that by wearing traditionally 'male' clothing, women are not parodying men and making offensive jokes about them. Men can wear dresses if they want... Women get offended when men either claim that wearing a dress 'makes' them a woman, or they make offensive, misogynistic comments when dressed in clothing parodying extremes.

A more similar comparison would be women dressing up as a stereotypical effeminate, camp gay man and making offensive jokes about homosexual men... No? Not acceptable?

I am don’t like drag and agree it’s a case of woman-face. It’s not okay for a white personal to dress up as an exaggerated black person or a straight person to dress up as an exaggerated gay person. It’s not okay for a man to dress up as exaggerated woman either. All involve mockery of the more vulnerable group by a group with more power.

Why can’t men dress up as ‘man wearing a dress’ rather than being a fake, over exaggerated woman?

Why can’t they be a ‘man in heavy make up’ rather than pretending to be a woman in make up?

I don’t have a problem with drag.

I do have a problem with

• drag queens performing to children in an overt sexualised manner
• men saying they are literally women and taking women’s prizes, sports places and trophies, entering our safe spaces

I have to disagree with this point tho. Drag is portrayals of a majority (men) of a minority (women). By majority here I don’t mean in numbers but in oppression. How you managed to twist that is bizarre.

Why isn’t blackface OK?

Of course they’re mocking women.

Theyre using exaggerated stereotypes to become parodies for laughs.

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