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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What is wrong with these people?

177 replies

Bobblemymind · 07/04/2023 22:13

Apologies for Daily Fail link. These landlords are fighting to keep their collection of extremely racist dolls on display. What possible justification could someone have for having a golliwog on display in this day and age? There is no ambiguity here, golliwogs are vile.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11949421/Moment-six-police-officers-raid-Essex-pub-seize-15-golliwog-dolls.html

Moment six police officers raid Essex pub and seize 15 golliwog dolls

Benice Ryley, 61, was quizzed by six officers after police received an anonymous complaint about The White Hart Inn in Grays, Essex.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11949421/Moment-six-police-officers-raid-Essex-pub-seize-15-golliwog-dolls.html

OP posts:
Americano75 · 08/04/2023 16:22

KitKatLove · 08/04/2023 15:22

My DH called me and our DD22 to the back of the store which is where the display was and we were all dumbstruck WTF. We were going to buy a couple of items from elsewhere in the store but put them back.

Yeah, we basically walked in going 'ooh what a lovely little sho...the fuck?'

JarByTheDoor · 08/04/2023 16:25

EddyF · 08/04/2023 15:48

don’t really care what people own etc. It’s the over explanation of why something is not racist despite the majority of the recipients (Blacks people) finding them deeply offensive. It’s not a welcoming environment walking into that pub as a Black person and seeing that (even if you try to ignore it out of politeness/awkwardness). We would know what it signifies INSTANTLY: not welcome/passive aggressive racist establishment.

Yes, it's very obviously racist and I'd walk straight back out — nobody displays these things unless they're very consciously making a point, and it's a point that makes me not want to stick around. Have obviously walked straight out of shops displaying them (never seen them in a pub). And being white I have the luxury of not then having to deal with a layer of the people I'm with potentially invalidating my response or calling me oversensitive, or if they do, it doesn't cut as deep because it's not about my race.

It's possible to argue that there are people who had and loved one of these dolls as a child who didn't understand at the time, and the fact they had one then says nothing about who they are now, but no 21st century UK adult displaying them publicly is unaware of what signal they're sending.

CurlewKate · 08/04/2023 18:01

I think we should all insist on calling them by their proper name. Let's not give the racists anywhere to hide.

LexMitior · 08/04/2023 18:19

Well it's likely racist but a "hate crime" it is not and the police can do naff all about it.

Racial hatred as a crime is difficult to prove and this isn't it.

Likely done to aggravate, annoy and upset, and also to communicate a racist mindset, but not a crime. I reckon they will be there for years to come.

ancientpants · 08/04/2023 18:41

BuckinghamPalaceFountain · 07/04/2023 22:21

My grandmother was black
she gave me my 1st baby doll that was black
In 1968
she also collected Robinsons golly badges which you sent off for in the 1970s

i still have the doll and the golly band badges and I treasure them all

what does that say about mu granny and me?

are you black OP?

In 1968 when Enoch Powell gave his "rivers of blood" speech I find it incredible that your black grandmother gave you a black face doll. I find it incredible that you as a child in 1968 had a grandparent from an ethnic minority living in the U.K. Your post has more holes in it than a 1968 vintage moth eaten gollywog.

monsteramunch · 08/04/2023 19:17

@Nat6999

I'm currently trawling Ebay for a black Gayle Sindy doll, I collect Sindy Dolls, does this make me racist? I'm also looking for a pink haired Space Fantasy Sindy, does this mean I discriminate against pink haired people? I collect them.

Do some reading about the history of golliwog 'toys'. You're comparing a black fashion doll with a toy specifically created to be a caricature of offensive stereotypes / racist beliefs.

I've shared a link below to an article that explains the background to this. If you have a read then hopefully you'll understand that comparing those toys to a black sindy doll makes no sense.


www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/21/golliwogs-vile-throwback-tory-mps

Perhaps it would be useful to discuss the tradition of dehumanising racist caricature to which these dolls belong. The English-American author Florence Upton invented the golliwog in a series of picture books produced at the onset of the Jim Crow laws, which mandated racial segregation in the American South. She described the character as "a horrid sight, the blackest gnome". He was clothed in the same apparel as the black-faced minstrels then prevalent in Europe and North America. He had thick lips, unruly black hair, and his hands and feet were paws.
The golliwog, like many related stereotypes of "primitive" black people ("picaninnies", minstrels, "mammies" and so on), quickly found a commercial market, producing a flood of cartoons and advertising imagery. It was taken up as a symbol by Hamleys, Harrods, Trebor and Robertson's jam. This imagery was consistent with a tendency to represent black people through the prism of biological racism. For example, the colonial exhibitions through which European states celebrated their global power featured "human zoos" and "negro villages".
The most insidious feature of these images is that they were intended for consumption by children, part of their socialisation into the adult world of race relations.

Lndnmummy · 08/04/2023 19:29

DeeCeeCherry · 08/04/2023 03:19

The racist fool is 61. I don't see 61 as old. I'd be even happier if it made a huge fuss and the pub was closed down. There's no debating with racists on or offline they understand direct action only

100% this

Lndnmummy · 08/04/2023 19:32

LexMitior · 08/04/2023 18:19

Well it's likely racist but a "hate crime" it is not and the police can do naff all about it.

Racial hatred as a crime is difficult to prove and this isn't it.

Likely done to aggravate, annoy and upset, and also to communicate a racist mindset, but not a crime. I reckon they will be there for years to come.

'Communicating a racist mindset' IS illegal.
Racism IS illegal

GreekDogRescue · 08/04/2023 19:35

6 police officers!
a hysterical overreaction surely

LexMitior · 08/04/2023 19:36

No it isn't. At least, a display of golliwogs, is not without more, an incitement to racial hatred.

What has otherwise to happen is there must be a crime driven by racism and there has to be evidence of that. Then you have something that is "hate crime".

Oysterbabe · 08/04/2023 19:59

I hope that the whole thing gets enough attention that when they get them back someone breaks in and destroys them.

Fannyinfinefettle · 08/04/2023 20:05

I was born in the 60s. My mum wouldn't let me collect the labels to get Robinson's golly badges - I remember being really upset that she wouldn't, but she told 5 year old me that they were not really very nice at all.
I grew up in a very white, middle class area, no real black community at all, although the nearest big city had/has a sizeable Asian community. But my mum and dad who were born in the 20s were able to see that these were racist. So it beggars belief that anyone today can't see it

hattie43 · 08/04/2023 20:16

They're just dolls .

CampsieGlamper · 08/04/2023 20:22

Are such dolls illegal? Yes or no.

bossonext · 08/04/2023 20:22

hattie43 · 08/04/2023 20:16

They're just dolls .

Vile racist dolls.

You'd like them.

monsteramunch · 08/04/2023 20:28

hattie43 · 08/04/2023 20:16

They're just dolls .

Please can you spend just a couple of minutes trying to understand why they are more than 'just' dolls? That's a genuine request, not a snarky one. If you read the article below (I've pasted a section of it below too) you'll understand the history behind them and perhaps come back and acknowledge you weren't aware of it before?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/21/golliwogs-vile-throwback-tory-mps

Perhaps it would be useful to discuss the tradition of dehumanising racist caricature to which these dolls belong. The English-American author Florence Upton invented the golliwog in a series of picture books produced at the onset of the Jim Crow laws, which mandated racial segregation in the American South.

She described the character as "a horrid sight, the blackest gnome". He was clothed in the same apparel as the black-faced minstrels then prevalent in Europe and North America. He had thick lips, unruly black hair, and his hands and feet were paws.

The golliwog, like many related stereotypes of "primitive" black people ("picaninnies", minstrels, "mammies" and so on), quickly found a commercial market, producing a flood of cartoons and advertising imagery. It was taken up as a symbol by Hamleys, Harrods, Trebor and Robertson's jam. This imagery was consistent with a tendency to represent black people through the prism of biological racism. For example, the colonial exhibitions through which European states celebrated their global power featured "human zoos" and "negro villages".

The most insidious feature of these images is that they were intended for consumption by children, part of their socialisation into the adult world of race relations.

Mostar · 08/04/2023 20:52

Give it a few weeks and they'll be campaigning for a new series of The Black and White Minstrels.

AAAAABBBBBCCCCC · 08/04/2023 21:05

I really am sick to death of the racial perversion and gaslighting on this thread.

Those dolls were, and still are, racist. There is absolutely no ambiguity in that fact. So why are you all tripping over yourselves to explain why you think they are okay? I find this attitude really creepy. Do better!

bossonext · 08/04/2023 21:26

monsteramunch · 08/04/2023 20:28

Please can you spend just a couple of minutes trying to understand why they are more than 'just' dolls? That's a genuine request, not a snarky one. If you read the article below (I've pasted a section of it below too) you'll understand the history behind them and perhaps come back and acknowledge you weren't aware of it before?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/21/golliwogs-vile-throwback-tory-mps

Perhaps it would be useful to discuss the tradition of dehumanising racist caricature to which these dolls belong. The English-American author Florence Upton invented the golliwog in a series of picture books produced at the onset of the Jim Crow laws, which mandated racial segregation in the American South.

She described the character as "a horrid sight, the blackest gnome". He was clothed in the same apparel as the black-faced minstrels then prevalent in Europe and North America. He had thick lips, unruly black hair, and his hands and feet were paws.

The golliwog, like many related stereotypes of "primitive" black people ("picaninnies", minstrels, "mammies" and so on), quickly found a commercial market, producing a flood of cartoons and advertising imagery. It was taken up as a symbol by Hamleys, Harrods, Trebor and Robertson's jam. This imagery was consistent with a tendency to represent black people through the prism of biological racism. For example, the colonial exhibitions through which European states celebrated their global power featured "human zoos" and "negro villages".

The most insidious feature of these images is that they were intended for consumption by children, part of their socialisation into the adult world of race relations.

That poster is a racist, of course they're not going to try to understand.

AbsoluteYawns · 08/04/2023 22:12

AAAAABBBBBCCCCC · 08/04/2023 04:11

They are horrendous caricatures of people of colour.

  • It does not matter if your grandmother gave you it.

  • It does not matter If it holds sentimental 'value'.

  • It does not matter if you have it hidden in the house.

  • It does not matter if you claim not to be racist.

  • It does not matter if you refer to it as a doll.

  • It does not matter if you/your family are black/part black.

  • It does not matter if you hold sentiment to Robinsons Jam.

  • It does not matter if you have fond memories of playing with one as a kid.

The fact will always remain: THEY ARE RACIST CARICATURES OF PEOPLE OF COLOUR.

Couldn't agree more! Everyone with a brain cell knows what they mean.

Felix125 · 09/04/2023 09:14

GreekDogRescue · 08/04/2023 19:35

6 police officers!
a hysterical overreaction surely

This will probably be a search team. 6 officers and a van who are tasked with whatever searches need doing each day for the force/district.

So they may have 10-15 searches to do that day - some will need 6 (or more) - cannabis farms, business premises for fraud, drugs dealers with loads of people present etc etc

Some searches will be relatively quick and will not need 6 - like this one

But they will keep that team together and will travel from search job to the next search job

Bloggss · 10/04/2023 00:31

It took 5 police officers to remove 15 dolls, gawd help us as they never attend burglaries or muggings. What next? Will police visit every house to check for stuff. these were is a private location. and it's not racist (check the dictionary for the definition of racism) we are utterly obsessed with woke now that it's frightening

Bloggss · 10/04/2023 00:32

What's racist about them?

monsteramunch · 10/04/2023 00:34

Bloggss · 10/04/2023 00:32

What's racist about them?

Will you read the article below (I've pasted a section of it below too) with a genuinely open mind?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/21/golliwogs-vile-throwback-tory-mps

Perhaps it would be useful to discuss the tradition of dehumanising racist caricature to which these dolls belong. The English-American author Florence Upton invented the golliwog in a series of picture books produced at the onset of the Jim Crow laws, which mandated racial segregation in the American South.

She described the character as "a horrid sight, the blackest gnome". He was clothed in the same apparel as the black-faced minstrels then prevalent in Europe and North America. He had thick lips, unruly black hair, and his hands and feet were paws.

The golliwog, like many related stereotypes of "primitive" black people ("picaninnies", minstrels, "mammies" and so on), quickly found a commercial market, producing a flood of cartoons and advertising imagery. It was taken up as a symbol by Hamleys, Harrods, Trebor and Robertson's jam. This imagery was consistent with a tendency to represent black people through the prism of biological racism. For example, the colonial exhibitions through which European states celebrated their global power featured "human zoos" and "negro villages".

The most insidious feature of these images is that they were intended for consumption by children, part of their socialisation into the adult world of race relations.

6namechang3 · 10/04/2023 12:35

What a surprise the innocent collector of toys seems to sharing some other fairly repugnant ( and down right thick) views
https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1645350354060443648?t=oYEl_veeO3g8Xoz43WWAKA&s=19

https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1645350354060443648?s=19&t=oYEl_veeO3g8Xoz43WWAKA

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