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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

What is wrong with these people?

177 replies

Bobblemymind · 07/04/2023 22:13

Apologies for Daily Fail link. These landlords are fighting to keep their collection of extremely racist dolls on display. What possible justification could someone have for having a golliwog on display in this day and age? There is no ambiguity here, golliwogs are vile.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11949421/Moment-six-police-officers-raid-Essex-pub-seize-15-golliwog-dolls.html

Moment six police officers raid Essex pub and seize 15 golliwog dolls

Benice Ryley, 61, was quizzed by six officers after police received an anonymous complaint about The White Hart Inn in Grays, Essex.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11949421/Moment-six-police-officers-raid-Essex-pub-seize-15-golliwog-dolls.html

OP posts:
donquixotedelamancha · 08/04/2023 01:29

I'm far more bothered by the police pursuing a hate crime for possession of dollies than I am by the fact that the pub owners are insensitive dicks to have them in the first place.

If we let the police get away with things like this then I'm quite sure that black people will be on the receiving end of misconduct far, far more than white gollywog owners.

Sortyourlifeout · 08/04/2023 01:37

BuckinghamPalaceFountain · 07/04/2023 23:13

I am delighted that you are indignant on my behalf

so back to the point
i own golly dolls:/ badges and no way would i ever part with them as they were gifted to me by my black grandmother

to own them does not make me racist

Show quote history

Are you able to recognise why these dolls are so highly offensive to people?

Giggorata · 08/04/2023 01:47

We had a golliwog in the toy box when I was very young in the fifties and we also had a “white” golliwog. It had a bright pink face and yellow hair and wore the same sort of clothing as its black companion. I don't know where it came from and have never seen another.
I found them quite sinister when I was young and looking back on it, I'm glad they were thrown out before my black foster sister came to live with us.

Allthelego · 08/04/2023 01:54

I fully agree that they should be removed. But six police?

magicthree · 08/04/2023 02:02

FrostyFifi · 07/04/2023 23:24

Six police officers though, seriously?
Not condoning the actual dolls but come on...

I agree, ridiculous. Have the British police really got so little to do?

Sortyourlifeout · 08/04/2023 02:37

magicthree · 08/04/2023 02:02

I agree, ridiculous. Have the British police really got so little to do?

Show quote history

Oh, come on, people!

OP CLEARLY said that this is a link from the daily FAIL.

Its either entirely untrue, or HEAVILY edited.

Some scenarios;

  • It didn't happen. The FAIL are liars

  • One or two officers talked to the landlords to offer advice and they advised that the dolls might call offense

DeeCeeCherry · 08/04/2023 03:19

The racist fool is 61. I don't see 61 as old. I'd be even happier if it made a huge fuss and the pub was closed down. There's no debating with racists on or offline they understand direct action only

Clementineorsatsuma · 08/04/2023 03:38

BuckinghamPalaceFountain · 07/04/2023 23:00

I am not at home but if i took s photo of my doll from 1968 i am sure that you would all be horrified

but she was bought for me by my black grandmother and i adore her

The whole post is about a white racist woman having these caricatures on display. It's completely removed from what you are talking about.

Nat6999 · 08/04/2023 03:41

I'm currently trawling Ebay for a black Gayle Sindy doll, I collect Sindy Dolls, does this make me racist? I'm also looking for a pink haired Space Fantasy Sindy, does this mean I discriminate against pink haired people? I collect them.

Clementineorsatsuma · 08/04/2023 03:46

Nat6999 · 08/04/2023 03:41

I'm currently trawling Ebay for a black Gayle Sindy doll, I collect Sindy Dolls, does this make me racist? I'm also looking for a pink haired Space Fantasy Sindy, does this mean I discriminate against pink haired people? I collect them.

Nothing like the same as well you know.
A doll is not an offensive caricature

AAAAABBBBBCCCCC · 08/04/2023 04:11

They are horrendous caricatures of people of colour.

  • It does not matter if your grandmother gave you it.

  • It does not matter If it holds sentimental 'value'.

  • It does not matter if you have it hidden in the house.

  • It does not matter if you claim not to be racist.

  • It does not matter if you refer to it as a doll.

  • It does not matter if you/your family are black/part black.

  • It does not matter if you hold sentiment to Robinsons Jam.

  • It does not matter if you have fond memories of playing with one as a kid.

The fact will always remain: THEY ARE RACIST CARICATURES OF PEOPLE OF COLOUR.

Ktime · 08/04/2023 05:11

JarByTheDoor · 07/04/2023 23:21

I'm uncomfortable with the police coming in and taking them away as a crime.

Those things are indisputably racist, and I wouldn't drink at that pub (and would let my friends and family know that I didn't and why I didn't), just as I've avoided buying things at seaside shops that display them, and I'd make my own personal judgements about the likely character and judgement of people who proudly display them (though I also know adults whose much-loved childhood bedtime cuddly toy unfortunately happened to be one of these, and I wouldn't hold it against them if they still had theirs in a cupboard somewhere as they didn't feel able to throw it away even after discovering the connotations later in life).

I'd back anyone campaigning for those who display them to learn why they're racist and upsetting, or asking them to remove them from display, or advocating people boycott the business until they're removed.

But unless maybe you can argue that they've been displayed in an attempt to disturb the peace, or as messaging to keep black people away from the premises, i.e. they can be shown to be breaking the law in some other way rather than just being dealt with under hate speech legislation, I'm squeamish about bringing in state powers to control what people can say and do, even if those things are racist or otherwise discriminatory.

I'm not black and I guess I might feel differently about this if I were, but I do belong to other groups that are often victims of discriminatory treatment, and I feel similarly uncomfortable about restrictions on what's often described as hateful speech or conduct.

Do you also think it’s fine to display Nazi memorabilia in a pub?

Felix125 · 08/04/2023 07:05

FrostyFifi · 07/04/2023 23:24

Six police officers though, seriously?
Not condoning the actual dolls but come on...

This will probably be a search team. 6 officers and a van who are tasked with whatever searches need doing each day for the force/district.

So they may have 10-15 searches to do that day - some will need 6 (or more) - cannabis farms, business premises for fraud, drugs dealers with loads of people present etc etc

Some searches will be relatively quick and will not need 6 - like this one

But they will keep that team together and will travel from search job to the next search job

Slitherie · 08/04/2023 07:14

There are so many photos of me as a child carrying around a gollywog - I adored him, he had red dungarees on. I loved him so much my grandmother knitted me a cardigan with gollywogs all over it.

There are a few photos of me in my gollywog cardigan carrying my beloved Gollywog teddy … I often think if I ever got famous, the leaking of these photos would have me cancelled before I had the chance to say “I didn’t know better!”

I cringe when these photos come out. Thing is I used to walk around in that cardigan all the time, I think I even wore it for school sometimes! Nobody ever said anything. This was the 80s, did nobody know better back then? Obviously I was a small child, I had no idea what it meant but the adults around me should have known better, surely?

NotAnotherBathBomb · 08/04/2023 07:17

BuckinghamPalaceFountain · 07/04/2023 22:56

If it is my heritage (experience of being of black heritage in the uk in the 60s and 70s ) then cant i own it ?

i loved having a black doll in the 1960d

Hi, I'm black. I don't understand why you keeping going on about having a black doll, there's nothing wrong with having one. It's not the same as a gollywog.

NotAnotherBathBomb · 08/04/2023 07:22

BuckinghamPalaceFountain · 07/04/2023 23:00

I am not at home but if i took s photo of my doll from 1968 i am sure that you would all be horrified

but she was bought for me by my black grandmother and i adore her

Ah right this explanation makes sense.

In your case I'd hold on to it for the memories it has for me, but I wouldn't pass it down to black children that I know as it belongs in its place, the past, and I want to break the cycle of perpetuating racist stereotypes and the negative imagery being imprinted on young children.

CurlewKate · 08/04/2023 07:37

It's 4 years since I spent much time on Mumsnet. It's reassuring to know that "I'm black and I love gollywogs" "My gollywog is the only thing I have to remind me of my dear old granny" and "I don't understand, gollywogs are just black dollies" remain recurring themes!

C1N1C · 08/04/2023 08:06

Correlation is not always causation. Owning black dolls does not necessarily make you racist. Owning a sword or a gun collection (usa), does not necessarily make you a threat. Owning a BMW does not necessarily make you a twat (although this one is debatable).

These are a stereotype born in history, just like Barbie or G.I. Joe.

CurlewKate · 08/04/2023 08:10

@C1N1C No, owning black dolls does not make you a racist. Owning and displaying gollywogs does.

Namechangedatheist · 08/04/2023 08:13

Regardless of whether your granny gave you a fondly remembered golly, it is undeniable that a very large number of people would find a public display of golly dolls extremely offensive.
So perhaps the landlord here is too bloody thick to realise this.
Or perhaps he genuinely loves his collection and just wants to share...
OR just maybe he's just an unpleasant twat doing this to get a reaction, and to play to his 'Little England' clientele? And if that's the case, he's won because he's got his shit old pub advertised for free in the DM and we are all talking about it.

Original poster
Bobblemymind · 08/04/2023 08:16

AAAAABBBBBCCCCC · 08/04/2023 04:11

They are horrendous caricatures of people of colour.

  • It does not matter if your grandmother gave you it.

  • It does not matter If it holds sentimental 'value'.

  • It does not matter if you have it hidden in the house.

  • It does not matter if you claim not to be racist.

  • It does not matter if you refer to it as a doll.

  • It does not matter if you/your family are black/part black.

  • It does not matter if you hold sentiment to Robinsons Jam.

  • It does not matter if you have fond memories of playing with one as a kid.

The fact will always remain: THEY ARE RACIST CARICATURES OF PEOPLE OF COLOUR.

This 👆

OP posts:
LlynTegid · 08/04/2023 08:17

@C1N1C there are sensible BMW drivers? Or even one? That should be news on the front page of The Paper that Supported the Blackshirts.

A public display is very different from a collection kept in a box or in a cupboard.

Sortyourlifeout · 08/04/2023 08:29

Slitherie · 08/04/2023 07:14

There are so many photos of me as a child carrying around a gollywog - I adored him, he had red dungarees on. I loved him so much my grandmother knitted me a cardigan with gollywogs all over it.

There are a few photos of me in my gollywog cardigan carrying my beloved Gollywog teddy … I often think if I ever got famous, the leaking of these photos would have me cancelled before I had the chance to say “I didn’t know better!”

I cringe when these photos come out. Thing is I used to walk around in that cardigan all the time, I think I even wore it for school sometimes! Nobody ever said anything. This was the 80s, did nobody know better back then? Obviously I was a small child, I had no idea what it meant but the adults around me should have known better, surely?

Yes, the adults should have known better.

Also, I would be burning those photos if it were me.

Sortyourlifeout · 08/04/2023 08:32

C1N1C · 08/04/2023 08:06

Correlation is not always causation. Owning black dolls does not necessarily make you racist. Owning a sword or a gun collection (usa), does not necessarily make you a threat. Owning a BMW does not necessarily make you a twat (although this one is debatable).

These are a stereotype born in history, just like Barbie or G.I. Joe.

Nothing like Barbie.

Barbie is a DOLL.

Gollywog is a fucking caricature of a black person. It is not just a doll.

Greenfairydust · 08/04/2023 08:51

''@BuckinghamPalaceFountain · Yesterday 22:21
My grandmother was black
she gave me my 1st baby doll that was black
In 1968
she also collected Robinsons golly badges which you sent off for in the 1970s

i still have the doll and the golly band badges and I treasure them all

what does that say about mu granny and me?

are you black OP?''

Rather an odd comment.

The owners are white, this is not the 70s or a private collection...

These days the general wisdom is that there is a racist connotation to these dolls being put on public display and rightly so.