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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What is wrong with these people?

177 replies

Bobblemymind · 07/04/2023 22:13

Apologies for Daily Fail link. These landlords are fighting to keep their collection of extremely racist dolls on display. What possible justification could someone have for having a golliwog on display in this day and age? There is no ambiguity here, golliwogs are vile.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11949421/Moment-six-police-officers-raid-Essex-pub-seize-15-golliwog-dolls.html

Moment six police officers raid Essex pub and seize 15 golliwog dolls

Benice Ryley, 61, was quizzed by six officers after police received an anonymous complaint about The White Hart Inn in Grays, Essex.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11949421/Moment-six-police-officers-raid-Essex-pub-seize-15-golliwog-dolls.html

OP posts:
Redebs · 08/04/2023 14:30

dcbc1234 · 08/04/2023 14:07

The 1960s long-running BBC Children's TV programme 'Play School' had a 'Golly' as one of the soft toys. The programme ran for decades (1964-1988) so I wonder when they got rid of the 'golly'.
I remember the Robertson's 1960s jam campaign - my Grandma used to collect them for me. There were badges and also ornaments to collect. It was a time when the Black and White Minstrels was a Saturday evening 6pm slot tv show.
My father used to let me read Enid Blyton books but did say she was a bit racist (he was a lefty).
I didn't give my own children any 'golly' toys and I find the Dutch 'Sinterklaas black face' phenomenon which still happens in the Netherlands rather distasteful but I don't think there was necessarily any real malice intended in any of these things. I do get that it is not for me to say whether it caused other people offence.

Play School never had a golly. Humpty was a dark green egg. Maybe you had a b/w telly?

Zebedee55 · 08/04/2023 14:38

During my childhood, most kids had gollys, and many collected the paper jam things to save up for an enamel badge.

I never actually liked my golly - it looked too much like a clown for me, and I've got a thing about clowns. Yuck.😚

No one gave it all much of a thought then - and I expect any older generation that still have their gollys is for nostalgic reasons - much like hanging onto an old teddy bear.😏

Up to them really.😗

But, I do think a 6 handed police raid was OTT - hardly the crime of the year.🙄

DojaPhat · 08/04/2023 14:40

Threads on racism on mumsnet are often hilarious. I've said it before but I think when black football players have bananas thrown at them on the pitch there'll be a helpful mumsnetter somewhere smiling at the heartfelt gesture because bananas are good energy dense snack.

Ktime · 08/04/2023 14:41

JarByTheDoor · 08/04/2023 13:27

I didn't avoid it, I just didn't answer, because it was much more important to me to address that sneaky "also", a sly little trick of wording to slide in an insinuation that I think it's fine to display golliwogs in a pub. I don't think it's fine. I've made it extremely clear that I don't think it's fine. Why should I answer questions from someone who feels it's acceptable to misrepresent me in this way?

I accept that you don’t think it’s fine, but it’s not ‘sly’ or ‘misrepresenting’ to point out you have one approach for golliwogs but presumably a different approach for Nazi memorabilia.

dcbc1234 · 08/04/2023 14:52

Anycolouryoulike · 08/04/2023 14:22

Play school never had a golly soft toy? They replaced one of the dolls with a black doll in the 80s.

That's what they are saying now on Wikipedia. It started in the 1960s and I remember there being a 'golly'. I can remember one of the female presenters arranging the toys for a picnic and saying sth like 'you sit there golli'.
I didn't have a golli toy ever (apart from Robertsons jam stuff) at the age I was watching Play School.
The toys I remember are: Humpty Dumpty, Big Ted, Little Ted, Hamble, Golli, ....? anyone else remember this?
There was so little choice in tv channels then, most people would have seen Playschool as a child in the 1960s.

dcbc1234 · 08/04/2023 14:55

I see that the BBC hideous clown testcard is available online but I cannot find any photos of the 1964 Play School line up of the soft toys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_Card_F

Test Card F - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_Card_F

dcbc1234 · 08/04/2023 14:57

Redebs · 08/04/2023 14:30

Play School never had a golly. Humpty was a dark green egg. Maybe you had a b/w telly?

LOL colour tv really wasn't a thing in 1964 when I would have been watching. I know who Humpty was.
I am concerned that something I remember seems to have been airbrushed out of history.

SighsTheNewWord · 08/04/2023 15:02

The 6 or more police must have shown up because the owners were being difficult or aggressive and they needed backups.

JarByTheDoor · 08/04/2023 15:03

Ktime · 08/04/2023 14:41

I accept that you don’t think it’s fine, but it’s not ‘sly’ or ‘misrepresenting’ to point out you have one approach for golliwogs but presumably a different approach for Nazi memorabilia.

It's sly and misrepresenting to glide into your comparison with an "also", because that rewrites what I said. By asking me if I "also thought y was fine" you implied that I said I thought x was fine. I didn't do that, so your question was based on a false premise and merely intended to smear me as a racist, rather than being a genuine question, which is why I didn't bother answering it.

And all you've "pointed out" is your own assumptions, ones that you suddenly invented and brought into the conversation, and about which I've said absolutely nothing.

FWIW, since you won't leave this where it is, and insist on more elaboration of what is a very basic, common form of liberalism and belief in free speech, something most progressive people used to value until quite recently, apparently: yes, I'd have the same approach to Nazi memorabilia. If it's directly or indirectly breaking laws on discrimination with regard to provision of goods and services, or is disruptive to the extent it amounts to some sort of public order offence, or breaks other laws which are generally considered justifiable in a liberal democracy, then it should be dealt with via the law. But I don't think it should be intrinsically against the law to have them or to display them.

KitKatLove · 08/04/2023 15:22

Americano75 · 08/04/2023 10:05

Oh God, that shop! I clocked that fucking display and ushered my lot straight back out. Absolute pricks.

My DH called me and our DD22 to the back of the store which is where the display was and we were all dumbstruck WTF. We were going to buy a couple of items from elsewhere in the store but put them back.

Zebedee55 · 08/04/2023 15:33

dcbc1234 · 08/04/2023 14:55

I see that the BBC hideous clown testcard is available online but I cannot find any photos of the 1964 Play School line up of the soft toys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_Card_F

There was a black dolly on there (to reflect the times), but not a golly.

The 'Play School' toys were Humpty (a plush version of the nursery rhyme character Humpty Dumpty), teddies Big Ted and Little Ted, ragdoll Jemima, and plastic doll Hamble (replaced by Poppy in the mid-1980s). Poppy, a black doll, was introduced to reflect changing attitudes in society.
collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk › ...

Zebedee55 · 08/04/2023 15:43

Enid Blyton has one in her toy town books, but I don't remember them on kids TV much.

I remember the B&W minstrels though - a "must watch" for one evening a week. God knows why, as it was boring.

As for gollys, I suppose people get offended at all sorts of things anyway.😉

'Twas ever thus.

EddyF · 08/04/2023 15:44

JarByTheDoor · 08/04/2023 15:03

It's sly and misrepresenting to glide into your comparison with an "also", because that rewrites what I said. By asking me if I "also thought y was fine" you implied that I said I thought x was fine. I didn't do that, so your question was based on a false premise and merely intended to smear me as a racist, rather than being a genuine question, which is why I didn't bother answering it.

And all you've "pointed out" is your own assumptions, ones that you suddenly invented and brought into the conversation, and about which I've said absolutely nothing.

FWIW, since you won't leave this where it is, and insist on more elaboration of what is a very basic, common form of liberalism and belief in free speech, something most progressive people used to value until quite recently, apparently: yes, I'd have the same approach to Nazi memorabilia. If it's directly or indirectly breaking laws on discrimination with regard to provision of goods and services, or is disruptive to the extent it amounts to some sort of public order offence, or breaks other laws which are generally considered justifiable in a liberal democracy, then it should be dealt with via the law. But I don't think it should be intrinsically against the law to have them or to display them.

Imagine having to twist yourself like this. lol.

One thing I have noticed about the U.K. public is that there is rarely any in-between; there are either really thick/uneducated or extremely smart and ‘woke’ (the word they hate so much, lol).

dcbc1234 · 08/04/2023 15:46

Yes. Maybe my memory has confused Jemima the rag doll with a golly. It was not available in colour then.

EddyF · 08/04/2023 15:48

don’t really care what people own etc. It’s the over explanation of why something is not racist despite the majority of the recipients (Blacks people) finding them deeply offensive. It’s not a welcoming environment walking into that pub as a Black person and seeing that (even if you try to ignore it out of politeness/awkwardness). We would know what it signifies INSTANTLY: not welcome/passive aggressive racist establishment.

GerronBuzanDoThaWomwok · 08/04/2023 15:49

Were you remembering Mary, Mungo and Midge? There was a golly next to the green truck in Mary's flat.

Rosula · 08/04/2023 15:59

Nat6999 · 08/04/2023 03:41

I'm currently trawling Ebay for a black Gayle Sindy doll, I collect Sindy Dolls, does this make me racist? I'm also looking for a pink haired Space Fantasy Sindy, does this mean I discriminate against pink haired people? I collect them.

Obviously not. Think about the word "Golliwog", particularly the end of the word. Does that give you a clue about why these are offensive?

dollybird · 08/04/2023 15:59

Zebedee55 · 08/04/2023 15:33

There was a black dolly on there (to reflect the times), but not a golly.

The 'Play School' toys were Humpty (a plush version of the nursery rhyme character Humpty Dumpty), teddies Big Ted and Little Ted, ragdoll Jemima, and plastic doll Hamble (replaced by Poppy in the mid-1980s). Poppy, a black doll, was introduced to reflect changing attitudes in society.
collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk › ...

I remember Hamble as a black doll

Rosula · 08/04/2023 16:04

Zebedee55 · 08/04/2023 15:43

Enid Blyton has one in her toy town books, but I don't remember them on kids TV much.

I remember the B&W minstrels though - a "must watch" for one evening a week. God knows why, as it was boring.

As for gollys, I suppose people get offended at all sorts of things anyway.😉

'Twas ever thus.

Have you ever thought about what it must be like having grown up being bullied day after day because your skin is the "wrong" colour, with the W word being thrown at you constantly as an insult, usually accompanied by the vilest offensive swear words possible and probably also accompanied by threats? Where do you imagine that W word originated from?

Do you think that, if that were your situation, you might understand why people find these things offensive?

MissingMoominMamma · 08/04/2023 16:05

Hamble was quite a scruffy doll, and definitely white.

Spidey66 · 08/04/2023 16:06

There's a world of difference between a black doll and a golliwog. There are children all over the world of different colours, why the hell should all dolls be white???

Times change, attitudes change. Golliwogs were a normal toy in the 50s, 60s, 70s, then we became more aware of the racist connotations and they fell out of favour. Im old enough to remember Robertson Jam using Golliwogs on their labels. Language changes, in the early 70s when I was a kid words like 'nier' 'pai half caste were common, now all those phrases are rightfully seen as offensive. Entertainment has changed, The Black & White Minstrels, Mind Your Language, Love thy Neighbour plus all those awful, awful stand up "comedians" like Bernard Manning were still popular when I was a kid. However, we are all much more aware that things we used to think were 'entertaining' were all highly offensive. I think these pub owners clearly knew this was racist. Having one in your bedroom as a reminder of your nan may be OK. Having loads decorating your pub isn't. I'd be extremely uncomfortable in that pub, and I'm white.

Spidey66 · 08/04/2023 16:10

I put a * in the offensive words which has made the words italic but you get my drift.

JarByTheDoor · 08/04/2023 16:14

EddyF · 08/04/2023 15:44

Imagine having to twist yourself like this. lol.

One thing I have noticed about the U.K. public is that there is rarely any in-between; there are either really thick/uneducated or extremely smart and ‘woke’ (the word they hate so much, lol).

Better than advocating for totalitarianism.

Anycolouryoulike · 08/04/2023 16:14

MissingMoominMamma · 08/04/2023 16:05

Hamble was quite a scruffy doll, and definitely white.

We always called her scruffy Hamble 😂 She was replaced with Polly in the 80s.

ExtraOnions · 08/04/2023 16:18

They should display thier Gollies in the window of the pub, so people know it’s full of racists and should be avoided.

At least we know where the knuckle draggers will be drinking.

Maybe the “free speech” brigade want us to back to using Pi, and Nr or maybe S**z for disabled people. It’s classic “punching down” and don’t be blindsided by “I don’t agree with what you are saying, but will fight for your right to say it” - normally trotted out by utter morons who can’t see the danger in hate speech and hateful emblems

I watched playschool in the 70s … no Golly