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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to be horrified that this man equal women's rights even though he says "he's comfortable with his genetils" Would you be happy to share a dressing room with him?

147 replies

Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 20:19

https://4w.pub/fetish-footballer-policy/

Trans Fetish Enthusiast Reportedly Advising Irish Policy on Men in Women’s Sport

An interview in the Guardian claims 'Giulia' Valentino has been consulted as part of a policy review into inclusion of males in Irish women's football

https://4w.pub/fetish-footballer-policy

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 22:04

@Imarealwoman nope, that wasn't me

Original poster
Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 22:05

Shuggie1234 · 03/04/2023 22:04

You are unreasonable for not being able to spell genitals 🍆😆

I'm clearly coming to this board to be educated unlike @Flounder2022 😜

OP posts:
Original poster
Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 22:06

StarmanBobby · 03/04/2023 20:45

That’s a bullshit article you’re quoting. ‘Reportedly’ is the most important word.
as in - it’s not happening.

@Flounder2022 apologies it wasn't you. It was @StarmanBobby Sorry flounder😊

OP posts:
Original poster
Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 22:07

1Week · 03/04/2023 21:36

Sorry - to add, initially went for Womens Rugby, but they have stood firm on women's safety and fairness, so he went for Ladies Football instead.

Can't stay away from the ladies can he🤔

OP posts:
Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 22:10

Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 22:04

@Flounder2022 there's no debate. There's no discussion. Women will not compromise their spaces for men.

@Flounder2022 maybe you can educate me as to why the trans are not fighting for trans sports teams, trans prisons changing rooms etc??? Why do they not want transgender recognised as it's own third sex?

That's not my question to answer. I am not a trans person.

Original poster
Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 22:14

@Flounder2022 you are saying there's no debate or discussion. I have made very valid points. Yes trans people absolutely exist so why are they not lobbying & shouting for their own safe personal spaces, trans toilets, trans sports leagues, prisons etc... Not many people would begrudge them that & let them officially identify as T.

OP posts:
1Week · 03/04/2023 22:19

Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 22:00

@ATerrorofLeftovers this place is an echo chamber like none other I have ever seen. There is no balance or discussion on here. Just a bunch of folk confirming to each everything they already believe to be the only truth.

If you think people linking to the likes of Gript media is going to educate anyone on anything then you are as ignorant as they come.

The insults and ridicule and attempts to run off anyone who doesn't agree with you is boring and I struggle to have any respect for the opinions of people who refuse to engage in reasonable conversation.

I will await the replies telling me to 'run along now'

Could you perhaps give a good faith precis of the trans activist side,please?
I sometimes think I'm missing something and ask people but it's very hard to get people to spell out their position and I'm left none the wiser

Sunset6 · 03/04/2023 22:19

The opposing team should get somebody’s husband, dad or brother to say they identify as female for one match only and then do a brutal man-marking job.

Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 22:37

@1Week, I'm not a trans 'activist'. I am a women who does not agree or believe that trans people pose any threat to me.

If there are men out there that would use the availability of self ID to get access women then the people I have an issue with are the men that would do that (but I am not so sure that is as much an issue as people seem to think. I mean when have men ever needed to go to such extremes to harm us).

As a women living in Ireland where self iD has been in place since 2015, there have been no increased risks to women that I have been aware of (and please if there are example please link to reputable sources not Gript media and the likes). I do not live in fear. I have shared bathrooms with trans women. I went to the toilet. I washed my hands. I left. They did the same.

I am no expert on this issue. But I am a women. Who has read up on it and tried to educate my self as much as I can. I am a women who has followed many of the threads on here and there has never been an argument or position that I have seen on here that causes me to believe you are on the right side of this.

I understand that you all feel very differently and very strongly about your position but I do feel you are very entrenched in it, so entrenched that nothing I or anyone can say that will make any difference.

So it's really not a place for anyone who believes differently than you do.

Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 22:41

An interesting point I often see raised on here is 'I don't have a gender identity'. In many ways I can understand peoples position on that. I just feel me, and I can't even really explain what that means or feels like.

But I don't know what it would be like or what it means to feel differently to that.

But that's the point. I don't or can't know. So I take people at their word and trust them when they tell me they feel differently. Who am I to tell them otherwise, or to tell them they are can't possibly feel that way.

Original poster
Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 22:42

As a woman living in Ireland also I am not comfortable with sharing my spaces with men. They have their own toilets already regardless of what label they put on themselves.

@Flounder2022 what would you think about seperate trans rights, their own safe spaces & toilets, prisons & changing rooms. What is your opinion?

OP posts:
Happylittlechicken · 03/04/2023 22:44

So @Flounder2022 because you are happy sharing spaces with males, does that give you the right to give away spaces for all women. Some women are anti abortion, should they be allowed to decide abortion is banned for all women? Why are you allowed to give womens rights away but they are not? If you’re so happy using mixed sex facilities, why not suggest the mens facilities are made mixed sex, and open for anyone like you, who does not mind sharing, and those women who do can use the single sex female facilities. Same with sports, prisons etc.

Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 22:46

Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 22:42

As a woman living in Ireland also I am not comfortable with sharing my spaces with men. They have their own toilets already regardless of what label they put on themselves.

@Flounder2022 what would you think about seperate trans rights, their own safe spaces & toilets, prisons & changing rooms. What is your opinion?

I think history has thought is that segregation is not really a positive thing.

I don't believe that as a women I am defined solely by my genitals

So what about trans men. What spaces do they use?

Botw1 · 03/04/2023 22:53

@Flounder2022

I'm surprised you don't see how your position is as equally entrenched.

'So I take people at their word and trust them when they tell me they feel differently. Who am I to tell them otherwise, or to tell them they are can't possibly feel that way.'

Except apparently when it's women telling you they feel vulnerable when men force their way into female only spaces

And it's really not for you or anyone else to decide that women who don't feel as you do have to give up their right to female only spaces.

Trans people can fight for their own spaces if that's what they need.

Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 22:54

Happylittlechicken · 03/04/2023 22:44

So @Flounder2022 because you are happy sharing spaces with males, does that give you the right to give away spaces for all women. Some women are anti abortion, should they be allowed to decide abortion is banned for all women? Why are you allowed to give womens rights away but they are not? If you’re so happy using mixed sex facilities, why not suggest the mens facilities are made mixed sex, and open for anyone like you, who does not mind sharing, and those women who do can use the single sex female facilities. Same with sports, prisons etc.

I am genuinely interested in what threat you think a trans woman poses you?

Original poster
Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 22:58

@Flounder2022 segregation????
So basically men still have their own facilities segregated from the women & Trans.
Women have been forced to "compromise" & give up their safe spaces to make the trans happy. I'm not willing to compromise for me or my daughters.
Transmen & transwomen need to have access to their own facilities. It's not segregation it's compromise so we can all coexist peacefully.

OP posts:
Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 22:58

Botw1 · 03/04/2023 22:53

@Flounder2022

I'm surprised you don't see how your position is as equally entrenched.

'So I take people at their word and trust them when they tell me they feel differently. Who am I to tell them otherwise, or to tell them they are can't possibly feel that way.'

Except apparently when it's women telling you they feel vulnerable when men force their way into female only spaces

And it's really not for you or anyone else to decide that women who don't feel as you do have to give up their right to female only spaces.

Trans people can fight for their own spaces if that's what they need.

What spaces are men forcing their way in to?

If you mean trans women, they have been using women's spaces for a long time.

Are there times when decisions need to be made on a case by case basis? Yes, as is exampled by the recent LGFA decision. As happens in prisons. In refuges. And in other situations (some of which I have experience of but won't go in to as may be identifying)

Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 22:59

Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 22:58

@Flounder2022 segregation????
So basically men still have their own facilities segregated from the women & Trans.
Women have been forced to "compromise" & give up their safe spaces to make the trans happy. I'm not willing to compromise for me or my daughters.
Transmen & transwomen need to have access to their own facilities. It's not segregation it's compromise so we can all coexist peacefully.

So really you mean 4 spaces? Because you couldn't possibly mean trans men and women should share a space?

1Week · 03/04/2023 23:01

Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 22:37

@1Week, I'm not a trans 'activist'. I am a women who does not agree or believe that trans people pose any threat to me.

If there are men out there that would use the availability of self ID to get access women then the people I have an issue with are the men that would do that (but I am not so sure that is as much an issue as people seem to think. I mean when have men ever needed to go to such extremes to harm us).

As a women living in Ireland where self iD has been in place since 2015, there have been no increased risks to women that I have been aware of (and please if there are example please link to reputable sources not Gript media and the likes). I do not live in fear. I have shared bathrooms with trans women. I went to the toilet. I washed my hands. I left. They did the same.

I am no expert on this issue. But I am a women. Who has read up on it and tried to educate my self as much as I can. I am a women who has followed many of the threads on here and there has never been an argument or position that I have seen on here that causes me to believe you are on the right side of this.

I understand that you all feel very differently and very strongly about your position but I do feel you are very entrenched in it, so entrenched that nothing I or anyone can say that will make any difference.

So it's really not a place for anyone who believes differently than you do.

Thank you Flounder - genuinely.

I suppose I'm coming at this from a 'what if' perspective.
I too have shared spaces with transwomen and men. 99.9% of both are sound people. But we don't make laws for sound people.

Transwomen are the same as men when it comes to reproduction - so dont negate the hardship women go through when men just have to nut. The same as men when it comes to size and strength - so recognise it in sports policy. The same as men when it comes to criminal patterns, violence, sexual violence, (attested) sexual "creepiness" (just my opinion, but think of leering, placing hidden cameras, that kind of thing. Maybe I'm totally wrong on this but I don't think so).
Policy and law should recognise this, imo - because as I said , we don't make laws for ordinary decent people, we make them to protect normal people (to be clear, normal people of any gender identity or bio sex) against chancers and opportunists and straight out criminals.

Honestly, I'd like if you could tell me where I'm wrong, in case I'm worrying over nothing.

Politicians should look down the road at hypotheticals, worst case scenarios etc, before changing laws. And it's OK for women to point out massive safeguarding loopholes. We are not obliged to take on a higher level of risk because it makes someone else happier.

Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 23:01

Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 22:58

@Flounder2022 segregation????
So basically men still have their own facilities segregated from the women & Trans.
Women have been forced to "compromise" & give up their safe spaces to make the trans happy. I'm not willing to compromise for me or my daughters.
Transmen & transwomen need to have access to their own facilities. It's not segregation it's compromise so we can all coexist peacefully.

And yes, segregation which is what you suggested

the action or state of setting someone or something apart from others.

Original poster
Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 23:03

@flounder any person with a penis is a man. Any man who chooses to mutilate his genetils is a man. And these men mutilated & most are in fact unmutilated like our poster boys Giulia & Barbie.
Women are in vulnerable positions in toilets & changing rooms are as young girls & elderly women.
I feel vulnerable, uncomfortable & anxious at the thoughts of a Trans in my space & my feelings are going to have to be counted. Why are his feelings as a man overriding mine as a woman?

OP posts:
Original poster
Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 23:04

Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 23:01

And yes, segregation which is what you suggested

the action or state of setting someone or something apart from others.

Show quote history

Well men & women's toilets were always segregated no issues. Why would a trans toilet not be a third segregation if they don't want to use the men's?

OP posts:
Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 23:07

@1Week but I just can't get my head around the thinking that we should make laws (or not make them as the case may be) that really impact people (in this case trans men and women) because some MEN are leery, creepy and may take advantage of access to women toilets!

Do you think trans women are more a threat to you than any other woman?

Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 23:08

Imarealwoman · 03/04/2023 23:03

@flounder any person with a penis is a man. Any man who chooses to mutilate his genetils is a man. And these men mutilated & most are in fact unmutilated like our poster boys Giulia & Barbie.
Women are in vulnerable positions in toilets & changing rooms are as young girls & elderly women.
I feel vulnerable, uncomfortable & anxious at the thoughts of a Trans in my space & my feelings are going to have to be counted. Why are his feelings as a man overriding mine as a woman?

I can't answer that. Because I believe trans women are women.

ATerrorofLeftovers · 03/04/2023 23:09

Flounder2022 · 03/04/2023 22:00

@ATerrorofLeftovers this place is an echo chamber like none other I have ever seen. There is no balance or discussion on here. Just a bunch of folk confirming to each everything they already believe to be the only truth.

If you think people linking to the likes of Gript media is going to educate anyone on anything then you are as ignorant as they come.

The insults and ridicule and attempts to run off anyone who doesn't agree with you is boring and I struggle to have any respect for the opinions of people who refuse to engage in reasonable conversation.

I will await the replies telling me to 'run along now'

This sounds like a convenient way to avoid having to engage with subjects you find uncomfortable, while simultaneously getting to feel good/superior because you feel you're taking the moral high-ground.

Sure, there are some strong voice on here, but why not sift through and take the wheat from the chaff, instead of dismissing it all out of hand?

Or engaging with the actual question. Like - do you think this male - or any male - should be playing football against biological women? Can you foresee any problems that might arise from a team of males with male bodies, playing sport against female bodies? What might those be? Why were sports sex-segregated in the first place?