Was my daughter cheeky or not?

[Apricodonut]

My daughter (early 20s) had a slight situation at work and is now worried sick that she was in the wrong.

Just for a bit of context- my daughter has been raised to be independent, confident and most of all honest. However, she has also been taught not to be forceful, domineering and cocky. She’s an intelligent young woman who is capable of standing up for what she believes is correct. I’m very proud of her but as her parent not blind to the fact she can be in the wrong too!

At her work, there was talk of a pay rise. Her manager had explicitly said there would be a pay rise for everyone as recognition for their hard work. It had been built up over the last few months to generate some excitement. Last week she had her individual meeting to discuss her pay rise and was told it was going up by certain amount. My daughter immediately realised this amount was actually the new minimum wage and that the pay rise was not due to hard work but due to the increase in the minimum wage. She said she wasn’t bothered by not getting a pay rise in the first place, but felt it was disingenuous to suggest the new pay was due to hard work as has been said rather than due to a new minimum wage. My daughter said she pointed this out, and that while she was happy with the pay she also wasnt happy that they were suggesting it was a generous pay increase rather than just the law. Her manager disagreed and said it was a pay rise for hard work. My daughter said this isn’t the first time something like this has happened and that she stood her ground that the situation was dishonest and misleading. She said it turned into a lengthy discussion about it but eventually it was left that she was unhappy with the situation as it was handled.

Just to clarify she is never rude or aggressive and is actually a strong debater, but sometimes she struggles to know when to leave something for the greater good even though it may be correct

She said her manager is clearly annoyed at her now and she regrets speaking up. She’s considering formally apologising but I thought it would be worthwhile getting some other opinions and thoughts on the situation first.

TIA x

There's nothing wrong with baring yourself to harsh scrutiny.

If you believe in what you're saying and you're being honest, what's the problem?

If more people were harshly scrutinised in business, work would be a better place for many.

Last week she had her individual meeting to discuss her pay rise and was told it was going up by certain amount. My daughter immediately realised this amount was actually the new minimum wage and that the pay rise was not due to hard work but due to the increase in the minimum wage.

To me, this reads as though her pay is increasing by X, and that the minimum wage is also increasing by X?

So yes, it may be a pay rise that reflects the minimum wage increase, but it's still above the new minimum wage?

It's not "cheeky " to challenge your manager

again it’s not cheeky at all, but not everyone believes this. I was flatly told, when my company acted illegally, that it was none of my business, I should do as I’m told, and then I heard managers parroting my ideas as theirs. Some people really are living in the 1950’s as far as expectations go, especially in small businesses.

she should get a new job, leave, and in the exit interview explain that it was the poor attitude of her managers which lead to their loss.

Your daughter was right to speak up. Her manager is a lier if they claim giving staff minimum wage is a pay rise for hard work. The company is trying to spin it so they sound like the good guys. The company is doing the bare minimum and expecting thanks. I wouldn’t apologise if I was in your daughters shoes.

Your daughter is absolutely correct in her take on the situation. This could easily be proven by asking what will happen to those that haven't worked hard!
One of my pet hates is when you challenge something or point out a fact and the conversation is shut down with words to the effect of 'well we all have different takes on things' or 'well its not important who's right or wrong'. I would be your daughter. I would continue to respond or get the last word in 'OK boss, I'm right but I can see for whatever reason you're not able to see that. Let's leave it there.'

I do hope she doesn't apologise. She hasn't said anything wrong. Of course as a woman her actions couldn't possibly be described as astute, intelligent or assertive....she'll be thought of as gobby, cocky, aggressive, argumentative or rude. I very much doubt the conversation would have had the same impact has Alan 58 said the same!

I would suggest she doesn't apologise, he was pulling a fast one, passing off the new minimum wage as him being generous with a pay increase.
He was the one being cheeky.

What a load of Bs calling a legal requirement an increase due to hard work . She will probably be “ punished “ indirectly simply by peak in the truth and imo under no circumstances should she apologise .

Because a payrise to obey the law cannot also be given in recognition of hard work. Unless the nmw increase is a coincidence I guess? But still, they would have to give the rise to their lazy employees too - it's the law!
Level of pay is uncorrelated with hard work - it's the wording of the employer that's inaccurate.

Your DD said nothing that wasn’t true. No way should she apologise!

Same thing happened to us our employer told us they are pleased to tell us our pay was going up to a decent amount for all our efforts and hard work then put it up to the new min wage. They talk like it was off their own back and like we don't have a clue about min wage. I wonder if she has same head office as me.

I think the companies the cheeky one for making out it's to do with hard work when it's legally required.
They should have been honest.

Just to be clear- she is on minimum wage at the moment and will continue to be on minimum wage. Her ‘pay rise’ was purely the mandatory increase in minimum wage- nothing else on top. She is insistent that she isn’t actually bothered about her pay and wasn’t expecting a pay rise anyway- it was the dishonestly about the situation that rattled her and she said she felt like she was being treated as if she were stupid enough to believe it.

she is only working in this job temporarily as a stop gap. She said she is worried now as she is being viewed as gobby and argumentative for standing her ground. She says she didn’t raise her voice and wasn’t aggressive- I believe her as I’ve seen her argue before and she was a top debater in school. She is smart, and can make some cutting arguments without breaking a sweat or seeming at all fazed. I’m so proud of the assertive, brave, honest young woman I’ve raised. Absolutely nobody pulls any wool over her eyes.

Your DD is correct and if it happened in the manner described, No she was not being cheeky.

YANBU

This!

@Apricodonut

She is smart, and can make some cutting arguments without breaking a sweat or seeming at all fazed. I’m so proud of the assertive, brave, honest young woman I’ve raised. Absolutely nobody pulls any wool over her eyes.

Well done in raising this smart, assertive woman OP - this will be to her advantage as she's goes through her career years and in other situations as well. She should definitely not apologise for catching out her manager who was trying to hoodwink her. 🌹

She should really not worry about being seen as gobby or argumentative. I stood up for myself on every occasion I was exploited at that horrible workplace and was told by middle management that my director would sack me if I carried on.

I left for a lovely new job which I enjoy. So did the director. He’s just offered me a job at his new place, so if I was that gobby and argumentative why would he do that. Middle managers hate someone clever who can see through them.

I wish her luck but I’m sure she will do really well. Good on her.

Thanks for all the kind replies. Good to know others are in agreement that she shouldn’t apologise. I didn’t think she should but she thought I was biased because I’m so proud of her 😉

On what you are saying .. no-one knows actually what the reality is her ax this is het hear say But on the face of it if that was my daughter I would-be very proud

I had the same situation a couple of years ago. I had been promised an increase when my probation term/agency term had finished. They had previously asked me to consider working for a lesser amount than I wanted and I agreed, - lord knows why - when I was finally offered the FT position I was offered the 'increase' which was in fact the minimum wage...incensed wasn't the word. I walked. Cheeky fuckers.

Why are parents of adult children on mumsnet this invested in their adult child's jobs?

I also can't stand when people say 'my child was brought up to be x y and z but not a b and c.' so pompous, do you think some parents are wandering around going 'well obviously wee jack was brought up to be a sexist homophobe with greasy hair who enjoys a bong at the weekend ..'

Anyway, your daughter sounds a bit cocky, as she should be! If more women had this level of balls to stand up to idiot bosses we'd be in a better place. Well done her. I'd have done the same in my 20s. I'm old and jaded in my 40s now and I actually think I'm less likely to be so outspoken because, more to lose maybe, not sure. I need to think on that really.

Anyway, your daughter sounds a bit cocky, as she should be! If more women had this level of balls to stand up to idiot bosses we'd be in a better place. Well done her. I'd have done the same in my 20s.

Disappointing that she now wants to formally apologise though.

Bloody hell talk about projecting.

I’m not invested in her job at all. But I won’t stop caring about her just because she’s an adult. She’s happy to talk to me about things like her personal life and her work and we’re very close, to be honest it’s a bit strange that you think this would be anything other than nice.

And yes, I will take pride in how she was brought up. Because it wasn’t always bloody easy. And I didn’t necessarily say it was from me so you’re being strange to assume I’m being pompous. Actually she was brought up through some horrific situations- years witnessing the most horrific domestic abuse and a single mother who struggled greatly at times. If it’s pompous to be proud of the kind, honest and fiercely strong young women she’s become then I’m happy to be pompous.

She only wanted to apologise because she said that she felt she was being treated as difficult and gobby and was second guessing how she should have handled it.

Well to her manager she is argumentative and a smarty pants. On issues like this with shite managers charging in and tackling them head on usually results in you being encouraged to leave or being constructively dismissed. And NMW workers don’t really have access to employment tribunal justice. Sometimes the best response is to smile, and then undermine while jumping ship.

This