Is Shamima Begum a victim or a criminal?

[ShamimaBegu]

Just listened to the podcasts about Shamima Begum. How can Shamima Begum not be viewed as a victim of grooming and sex trafficking? How on earth would a 15 year old got to Syria without adults making it happen?
She was married off and became pregnant on multiple occasions. She surely is as much a victim as a criminal?

I think you may be confusing Shamima Begum with her friend Sharmeena Begum. It was Sharmeena's Dad who remarried. Sharmeena was the one who went to Syria first and encouraged Shamima to come as well.

I think most 15yr olds know it's not okay to chop people's heads off or rape women. This stuff was on the front pages of newspapers before she travelled.

@ShamimaBegu
No I'm not, Shamima's father moved back to Bangladesh leaving her mother with their 4 daughters. He has a new family. He was interviewed from Bangladesh and he had to tone down his criticism of the UK removing her citizenship explaining that if she was sent to Bangladesh she'd be hanged.

Sharmeena's mother died when she was 8 and her father remarried.

This. I think most ten year olds would know beheading is wrong. Her life is completely fucked whatever happens to her. She wouldn’t be safe in prison here unless she was in solitary and she could never show her (now very wellknown) face in public in this country. She has no future.

Why does she want to come back to Bri tain? she spoke openly about how much she hated it. Does she think she will be welcomed with open arms? What about her husband's family? Would she be able to go there? I doubt she would consider coming back if things hasn't turned out the way they had. The amount of security and protection she would need if she came back. Bangladesh certainly wouldn't see her as a victim, even though some of her family are there.

@bellabasset Thank you for this information. I didn't realise.

She's been abused, almost starved to death and had 5 of her children die over their due to malnutrition and poor healthcare

Oh look, the story's expanding to FIVE children now ... and still no actual evidence that they ever existed

Miscarriages count as children now apparently. 🙄

I really hope none of her defenders are ever called for jury service. The mental gymnastics employed to excuse her are unbelievable.

@Blossomtoes They count as children to me, from the moment of conception.

Fine. They don’t count as children legally or in any other sense for the vast majority of us.

But what I meant is that they were still her children so she has technically lost 5 children, 3 by death and 2 by miscarriage.

I’m aware she didn’t pass the letters on but the question why school/police didn’t deal directly with the parents for someone under 16 and who school think is at risk. Teenager doing something their parents don’t know about and doesn’t pass communication on - shocking 🤨

You really do seem to be a most horrible person. I hope you're never called for jury service, but unfortunately lack of intellect and compassion doesn't disqualify people.

Would you honestly tell someone you know who'd miscarried that it wasn't a child? I'm sorry for your acquaintances if so!

As you say, evidence is put before decision-makers. I'd assume they're happy with what they see re her children, as no one has disputed it.

That's absolutely vile.

I agree children know what is right/wrong to this extreme but isn’t the point about being radicalised and brainwashed that she was told they weren’t real or it’s a misrepresentation or is somehow justified as women/children were being bombed - whatever their story was. People are viewing it through their own lens and how they would think.

I’m mid 40’s and have never seen any of the brut ISIS videos, why would I have? I totally believe it to be true but find it odd the view is everyone has seen a video of someone being beheaded.

*brutal

I think your point about seeing it through your own lens is a valid one @TruthsAndALie. And the effect of radicalisation.

You can accuse me of lacking compassion if you like @Jourdain11, by your standards I probably do, I’m not a sentimentalist. There’s nothing wrong with my intellect though.

I've had miscarriages and I (and most women I know) would say they had lost a pregnancy rather than a child?

@chocandchurro I, and all women I know would say they had lost a baby/child.

To be honest, I think I just said I'd had a miscarriage and didn't refer to losing anything. But it's personal, isn't it? If you're already thinking about the baby your pregnancy will result in, it's very reasonable to feel you've lost a child.

You are completely right, it's personal to each woman and each woman will feel differently.

Or maybe we treat someone who mutilated and murdered other women for fun and has shown no remorse past crocodile tears as the criminal they are.

There's no evidence at all that she did that. You've been reading too many dodgy 'news' sources.

She had three children and they all died; her husband (and it was effectively a forced marriage) was abusive. She's still very young. At worst, she's guilty of being stupid and naive - hands up anyone who wasn't at 15.

People say 'Of course she knew what ISIS was like, but they were told again and again that all the anti-ISIS stuff was propaganda. It's very wrong that our government has taken her citizenship. Even if she had committed a crime, she is our responsibility.

Did anyone hear her husband saying that her role was to please the husband, obey the husband and he openly said that it's not an equal relationship. What he says goes 😳

I think Truths is right; I'm of a similar age and have never seen a beheading video or any violent IS footage, despite being an avid consumer of current affairs. Having seen how easily various conspiracy theories took hold of formerly clear-thinking people during the pandemic, why are we surprised that radicalised young people were able to discount the portrayal of IS in the western media, rationalising it like "...Well, that's what they want people to think... They would say that, wouldn't they... They are serving their own agenda..." Phrases like these have caused untold suffering in the post-truth West. All it takes is a bit of mental gymnastics and a suspension of critical faculty in place of faith, which is a key feature of most organised religion, let alone radicalised groups.

I work with refugee communities and, as stated in the podcast, it is not uncommon for young people in war zones to give an exaggerated impression of their own resilience. I see this a lot in the children and young people I work with; heartbreaking, life-changing stories or snippets of gruesome, violent events passed off with a shrug, as if in passing, with a smile, even; "Don't worry about me, it's OK." I'm not at all surprised that Shamima, in the situation she found herself in, giving that first interview, may have come across as aloof or detached from the horrors of the regime.

I think Shamima should be permitted to return to Britain, her citizenship reinstated, and the extent of her culpability investigated here under the close scrutiny of professionals and agencies expert in radicalisation, trafficking and coercive control and who able to advocate for her interests.

@TruthsAndALie
It's been accepted that the authorities failed to act appropriately. We know that Sharmeena, the girl who went first, is still an active member of Isis. We know as @Bepis says that in the interview with her husband that she had to obey him and he beat and raped her. He admits that she lost their children due to being malnourished. She doesn't want to return to him.

We don't know what expectations she had as a schoolgirl in Tower Hamlets, she says she never met men at home. From February this year in Britain marriage is illegal for anyone under 18, a law which Sajid Javid supported. If she returns to the UK no doubt she would be detained and questioned under the terrorism acts.