Is Shamima Begum a victim or a criminal?

[ShamimaBegu]

Just listened to the podcasts about Shamima Begum. How can Shamima Begum not be viewed as a victim of grooming and sex trafficking? How on earth would a 15 year old got to Syria without adults making it happen?
She was married off and became pregnant on multiple occasions. She surely is as much a victim as a criminal?

My DS and his friends / girlfriend are 15. It’s such an ‘on the edge’ age: one minute he’s all bravado and trying to talk like an adult, next minute he’s my little boy again. It’s no wonder that the whole ‘age of consent’ debate swirls around 14/15 year olds: they are right on the cusp of moving into adulthood, but still children at times.

Something I hate in these debates are expectations that victims ‘should’ act in certain ways, otherwise they are not deserving of sympathy. It’s such a tabloid way of looking at human behaviour. People react to horrific events in all different kinds of ways, they don’t follow a script. But they can still all be victims of something horrible.

I think this was Sharmeena Begum's Dad, not Shamima Begum's. Two different girls. Or one of the other two who went with her. Unless you have any evidence otherwise?

I work in safeguarding.
I was doing some training recently and one of our case studies was a 15 year old.
As we worked through the example, I really thought of Shamina and how she was trafficked, and how she should have been considered to be victim.

I am under no illusions that she has behaved appallingly since, and she should absolutely face the consequences of that.
But we as a nation have responsibility for the fact that she was trafficked out from under our noses, and let down by all the adults around her at the time.

Let's not foget that after being trafficked, she was then, while still under 18, so still considered to be a minor in terms of safeguarding, she then was married, raped and bore 3 children all of whom died.
And all the time she was surrounded on all sides by a constant message of ISIS ideology and anti western sentiment, with no access to western media. I am not sure that people really grasp just how brain washing being in that context woudl have been. So it is hardly surprising that that was what she was saying when she was found.

So I assume that she is now a screwed up mess, and that she has done some seriously stupid and horrible things.

Is she still a victim? yes, I think so, and I think she needs to be brought back here, because we need to take respinsibility for her.

Something I hate in these debates are expectations that victims ‘should’ act in certain ways, otherwise they are not deserving of sympathy. It’s such a tabloid way of looking at human behaviour. People react to horrific events in all different kinds of ways, they don’t follow a script. But they can still all be victims of something horrible.

I agree. Look at things like Stockholm sydrome.
And the Rochdale girls.
groomed and abused and raped, but seen by the police as promiscuous, young prostitutes, deserving of what they get because of their behaviour.

Yes my mistake one of the others who traveled with her .

Might want to get your post deleted then as it's potentially libellous of her Dad.........

We as a nation have responsibility for the fact that she was trafficked out from under our noses, and let down by all the adults around her at the time

Up to a point perhaps, but so much depends on what the family's influence was - something which, like the alleged existence of her babies, we can't know either way

Neither do we know if this particular family would have welcomed an input aimed at diverting Shamima from the path she chose, or even whether - like so many within the culture - they were keen to keep a close eye on her

I'd fully expect the security services to have a better idea though; in fact this has been widely suggested with the remarks about "If the public knew ...", and on the whole I'd rather take their word for it

What are you talking about? People say these stupid things. What does stripping British citizens of their citizenship have to do with ‘keeping your kids safe?’ She wasn’t in this country when that terrorist attack happened! Her not being in this country would not prevent that attack, because she wasn’t in the country when it happened. So dumping British citizens in Syria and making them the problem of an impoverished war torn country isn’t ‘keeping your kids safe.’ It’s just shirking your responsibilities onto a country that doesn’t have the resources to refuse or fight you on it.

If it's a question of national security and she's super dangerous then what's the benefit to leaving her in a semi secure refugee camp that loads of fighters have escaped from?

We were shocked at how common it was in our area, it's one of those things you think happens in other areas to other people. Obviously my knowledge of who has been helped is very limited to my own experiences but I was extremely impressed with the team of police who assisted and supported the children, more than can be said about the school who were dreadful in their conduct.

Its a bit more then a stupid comment esp to the victims and families of that attack, that along with security risks that have not been made public. It also not being easy I imagine to strip citizenship without very good reason .

I’m not shrinking my responsibility, it is maybe letting the people in charge of national security in this country do their job who have a lot more knowledge on this case then you or I .

Okay, so you’re soooo worried about keeping your kids safe from another Manchester attack - in that case you surely will not want to leave a person you believe to be a dangerous supporter of/colluder in this attack as open and free and inaccessible as they were the day the bloody attack happened. You would of course want them tried for their crimes and kept under surveillance in an appropriate prison or facility by the UK government, who are charged with keeping your kids safe.

Unless your ideas on everything are that confused. As in, rather than the faff of trying them in court, we should simply let child sex offenders go on holiday and then strip them of their citizenship to ‘keep our kids safe.’

I’m sure she’s under surveillance over there . I can’t fully protect my kids no but I do hope this is a big lesson for anyone thinking of travelling to join terrorist groups .

I’m sure she’s under surveillance over there.

Like Sharmeena was? She escaped ages ago

So how is refusing to prosecute this person (who you believe to be a dangerous criminal) keeping your kids safe? It isn’t. She’s in exactly the same position she was when the Manchester attack happened, in that she is not convicted of any crimes, basically inaccessible, and in a great position to network with other potential terrorists. That argument does not hold.

I’m sure if the bbc can track her down she not that well hidden .

Guilty but it is the way she was brought up. Her dad attended a rally and burned a union jack flag. Lee Rigby killer was also there.
www.politicalite.com/latest/updated-revealed-father-of-isis-three-attended-rally-with-anjem-choudary-and-lee-rigby-killer/

From your own article:

Abase Hussen, father of Amira Abase, who fled with Shamima Begum in 2014 to join ISIS marched at the front of the demonstrators, behind a banner reading: ‘The followers of Mohammed will conquer America’

Still grooming though, right?

Like those little kids in infant school who say racist things they don't even understand. Brainwashed by bollocks since birth.

Both. Either way she’s British and we should never have let those babies die. I don’t think she’s anymore of a threat than all the murders we let out of prison every day.

I think she was definitely groomed and, as such is a victim. There is no evidence that she ever had anything to do with being a perpetrator and when the woman she claims groomed her (Sharmeena) was found by the BBC in Syria still working for ISIS she laughed at the idea that Shamima Begum was in the Hisbah (the women's group that went around beating other women for dressing/behaving inappropriately). She said she couldn't have been in it because she didn't speak Arabic and that SB was really quiet and just stayed at home. Given that she was only 15, had a nasty, controlling husband who didn't allow her out (by his own admission), that sounds believable to me. I think she should be allowed to return to the UK and face the consequences. She was 15 FFS. I think there's a lot of misogyny and Islamophobia that's keeping her stuck in that shithole camp in Syria. Her whole family is here. She was born here. Bangladesh has said she can't have a passport, so removing her British one has left her stateless, which I thought was not allowed under the UNCHR.

I can’t comment any further as I don’t work for national security and all facts in this case have not been made public.
Anyone 19 years of age saying that attack was justified, I really can’t have much sympathy for them and il leave them in care of the people who do know . That is just my opinion and you don’t have to agree .

I didn’t ask if you cared about her or have sympathy for her. I asked how refusing to prosecute someone you believe to be a dangerous criminal is in line with trying to ‘keep your children safe.’ It is not. Your argument was nonsense.

Most murderers kill one person or a handful. Terrorists plan attacks that kill dozens or sometimes hundreds.