Is Shamima Begum a victim or a criminal?

[ShamimaBegu]

Just listened to the podcasts about Shamima Begum. How can Shamima Begum not be viewed as a victim of grooming and sex trafficking? How on earth would a 15 year old got to Syria without adults making it happen?
She was married off and became pregnant on multiple occasions. She surely is as much a victim as a criminal?

I’m inclined to think 15 years olds can be utterly fucking stupid. The podcast basically makes it sound like she followed her friends which I can believe.

I think that people steeped in political/religious extremist groups basically lose their moral compass. It’s a bit like the “be kind, it’s ok to punch a granny in the face, she deserved it” crew. They see appalling crimes committed against others as deserving for their own imagined victimisation. You see this across all sorts of groups, left and right at the extreme fringes violence is acceptable. I struggle to understand how slavery and rape were fine by her but then I’m not radicalised.

What I don’t understand is how the judges think she presents a very real threat but the podcast suggests that she basically got married had kids and didn’t go out much. Even her old mate Shamima was talking about her like she’s a bit pathetic. Yet the government considers her to be extremely dangerous. I’d really like that explained.

I do think dumping her on Kurds to look after isn’t ok. Unless the deal is, you keep these people and we will pay you and they are happy with that. What concerns me more are the number of children in these camps who are being radicalised. They are being raised in a cult. She raises a point that loads of people got back tot he UK and the government is just making an example of her, I think thats true, ex-isis fighters (men) have managed to get back to the uk and haven’t been stripped of citizenship.

ex-isis fighters (men) have managed to get back to the uk and haven’t been stripped of citizenship.

Jack Letts was.

I dont think any is suggesting she shouldn't have been punished but even James Bulgers killers were given the opportunity to be rehabilitated and live their lives in the UK, obv under licence and one has been recalled several times.

And as I have clarified, I am talking about the public. Many Home Secs have made bad decisions based purely on public sentiment. The state should be above that, applying logic and consistency.

Do racists get an extra charge out of Home Secretaries being "brown".

Or does it just give political cover?

Or is it just a coincidence that our last three have been?

100% victim.

She's both, obviously, we do generally expect 15 year olds to take some responsibility for their own actions. The question we should be asking is, is any crime severe enough to justify stripping someone of their citizenship? And if so, why are people like Levi Bellfield and Myra Hindley still British citizens?

Was 19 when she said the Manchester attack was justified, she had a choice at 15 to not get on that plane. Even at 19 to maybe change her views . Poor 8yr old Saffie-Rose Roussos had no choice and many others who were killed that night in Manchester.
Changed her opinion when it all started going shit over there and she lost everyone close to her . And please stop bringing race into it, many white people have not been aloud back . Il quote here as not listened to pod but many security issues with her that have not been made public. Her dad should maybe take some responsibility for the views he had also .

Definitely a victim, she made some stupid choices at 15 and was clearly brainwashed. If she had killed somebody at 15 she’s be out of prison leading a normal life now. 15 year olds are stupid but one bad decision shouldn’t affect their whole life, yes if she’s allowed back to the UK she should serve time in a prison and attend relevant hearing but the poor girl made a mistake.

You are not taking account of the magnitude of her crimes. We are not talking about just one victim but having an involvement in the murder of hundreds, maybe thousands of innocent people. A war crimes tribunal is probably about right.

She was a victim when she went, she became a criminal when she decided to stay and contribute to the IS’s cause. I bet if she was allowed back into the UK, she would start supporting similar groups and activities under the radar straight away.

The vast majority of criminals in jail have had a difficult time in part or the whole of their childhood. So do a huge amount of people who are not in jail. She was no longer a child when she continued making some of her choices.

The government know more of the horrors of what she did, but couldn't discuss it. They said if everyone knew they would understand why she poses a risk to national security. She made her bed and rightly or wrongly, they need to make an example of her to prevent others following suit.

She became a criminal when she stole her sister’s passport and left the country on it.

Agree. If that is the environment which drew her in with a promised sense of belonging and community then she will be looking to replicate that at the slightest pique of disillusionment. There are therapies available to work on this but too expensive to justify in many cases with a low success rate.

Criminal. I wouldn't want any ex member of ISIS coming to live next door.

But it’s ok for her to live next door to a Syrian family?
I take it if that is the case then you’d be happy for a Syrian criminal to come here and live next to you instead, if Syria don’t want them back.

Lets be clear - I am not saying she should have no punishment. But I strongly believe that as she was born and brought up here, we have a responsibility for her that we don’t get to just dump on other countries. We would not be happy with them doing it to us.

Both.

She was absolutely brainwashed and groomed in the UK and helped out of the country by extremist adults. And there were plenty of responsible people in the police and local safeguarding who knew it would happen and could have stopped it, but didn't.

She has no doubt been exposed to and has possibly participated in some horrific things also and may not be safe to live a free live.

But she's OUR problem. She was raised and educated in the UK. She was let down by our safeguarding and justice system. We have to deal with her.

I think of Saffie-Rose quite often as we were there the month before ,I couldn’t imagine taking my child to a concert all excited and happy and not bringing them home, the terrible injuries she suffered before she died.

Then for Shamima to sit there at 19 so calm and collective to say that was justified she appears beyond help to me . Yes maybe more should of been done beforehand but I have to side with the government and national security in keeping my kids safe .

To put it into context, many serious criminals never get caught and you could already be living next door to them. The nature of this crime is hive based. they rarely pose a problem for neighbours because part of their MO is to keep a low profile. Infact, they often make good neighbours because they are quiet and almost invisible.

Luckily the police in our area do a huge amount of work with young people who are being groomed by extremists so many are helped before anything top serious has happened

That's wonderful to hear, if the efforts have been helpful in your area; unfortunately even to make the attempt is deemed racism by some, which isn't always so beneficial - especially if they later try to fall back on "why weren't they stopped?"

That said, while there are some they'll never reach, it's got to be a plus if those "on the sidelines" can be worked with - initiatives which many communities are already doing so much towards

I think the role of identifiable internet groomers is rapidly falling away. Algorithms can do that job. I believe that kids who have absolutely no prior tendencies or vulnerabilities can be directed down those paths via a home computer.

I find it odd how we condemn attacks like the Ariana Grande concert bombing yet on the other hand idolise groups like the suffragettes who were attempting to set off bombs in theatres and churches inhabited by the general public.

Regarding Shamima, I struggle to muster too much sympathy after reading the multiple accounts of how she'd help sew women into their suicide bomb vests so they couldn't escape if they changed their minds.

Not sure about first other than I’ll always condemn AG bombing, but that last part is terrifying

There’s a similar very good Swedish series which ends in the same way the groomer convincing the girl to padlock vest, she does change her mind but too late. At a concert too. Harrowing.