What the heck is a grammer school?

[BlackBarbies]

Posting here for traffic!

Born and raised in South West London and still live here now. I’ve never heard of a grammar school until joining MN a couple of years ago.

Is it a primary school, is it a secondary school? Is it private or public? If it’s public, then why is it called a grammer school? Is it only available for certain types of children or something? I literally have no clue what a grammer school is so I’m happy to be enlightened!

Also, are there any in SW London? I’m genuinely intrigued as to how I’ve never come across one before

Same. I was a quiet and shy kid who had already been bullied before grammar. The local grammar school girls were more like me and I just fit in better. I was very much an average student at grammar, but still did better than the highest student at the local comp I'd have otherwise gone to.

Having said that though, there is the counter argument that if there weren't grammar schools, then the "clever" kids would be dispersed around the state comps and actually improve those schools.

I now work in an area with no grammars and the local state schools all get much better results than the non-grammar schools where I grew up.

A lot of the kids in my area get tuition for their 11+. The exam was supposedly changed a number of years ago to make tuition less effective (as there was obviously the argument that it prioritised those that could afford tuition, rather than selecting the most naturally gifted children). On the basis of how many 11+ tutors there still are out there, it's obviously not a foolproof system.

Depending on the school, and the pupil, there can be a lot of pressure put on kids to achieve the highest grades possible. When I was at grammar, out of 180 girls doing A-levels, around 170 people went on to Uni (admittedly this was before tuition fees!). It was kind of expected for you to go and if you didn't (like me!), the teachers almost washed their hands of you!

Huddersfield Grammar is definitely a private school.

The clue is you have to pay for your children to attend.

Whole eduction on northern irland is built around them. You do test in the last year primary to get into one. Depending on kids test score depends what school they can choose.

Quite a few once state big city grammar schools went independent in the late 60s when comprehensive education was introduced, like Bristol and Bradford. A few areas retained the 11+ exam but taking it is often not common in mainly comprehensive local authorities. Plymouth still has three grammar schools, and it's common for children to be sent to fee-paying academic prep schools to take the 11+. If successful, then move to free grammar education. Medics in particular took this route, but then retained the option of Common Entrance at 13 if they failed the 11+.

Theyre schools that are only in certain areas so that people who dont want their kids to go to school with the plebs can get a free version of a private school.

There are also some state comps which call themselves a grammar even though they're not selective!

So when children are in primary school, does everyone do the 11+ exam or will some parents ask for their kids to do it to see if they pass the test? How does that bit work?
I don't know how it works in other local authority areas but back in my day of being aged 10, everyone in the authority sat the same 11-plus exam on the same day at primary school. Everyone sat it (I think there might have been the option to opt out but everyone tended to do it) and the date of the exam wasn't announced in advance (although you could usually take a guess at when it would be). You didn't know your results until you got your school places allocated so you had to select one or two grammar schools as your top choices and a couple of the secondary modern schools as your next choices. If you passed you got a place at one of your grammar school options and if you didn't you got a place at the secondary modern. The 11-plus was very much a verbal reasoning test.
Nowadays though the schools all set their own exams and seem to have at least an English and Maths paper and you opt in to take them and the tests are held on Saturday mornings at the grammar schools, so more like the independent school entrance exams format. The kids now get their results before they apply for school places so they only apply to the schools that they passed the exams for.

You mean a GrammAr school.

Grammar schools teach you how to pass exams. That is the main benefit. But that is pretty much the only one.

Twenty years later I can still boss a last minute exam or produce an essay in a couple of hours, but I lack that unshakable confidence that private schooling gives you.

Going to a grammar school gives you the key to the door of world private school kids will effortlessly join, but they forget to give you the map.

Prep schools are private (fee-paying) primary schools. So parents will pay for private primary schooling in the hope their child will pass the 11+ and save them the cost of private secondary schooling.

@slamfightbrightlight ahh that makes complete sense. However, if parents can afford fee paying primary schools then aren’t grammer schools a step down in comparison to a private secondary school? Or is a private school and grammer school meant to be on the same sort of level?

So many questions because I genuinely find this so interesting😅 literally don’t know a thing about this sort of stuff

I don't think the replies asking how the OP doesn't know are out of place. It's essentially like saying you don't know how your country works.

When was he born? My dad was a baby boomer (born Oct 1946) and there weren’t enough grammar school places for all the children who passed their 11+ so the local authority paid for him to go to a fee-paying school. Not sure how long that went on for.

@HurryShadow

Having said that though, there is the counter argument that if there weren't grammar schools, then the "clever" kids would be dispersed around the state comps and actually improve those schools.

The same can be said for any kind of selection. In our town, we have two huge church comps alongside a couple of failing comps (typical "sink" schools"). The parents who care about their child's education do their utmost to get them into one of the two church schools by attending church to accrue points or move closer to them (admission is based on church attendance points and proximity). The ones who don't care, or don't research the local schools, end up with their kids in a failing comp. If the church schools weren't allowed to set entry criteria based on church attendance, then the town's pupils would be better spread across all the schools and inevitably results/standards in the failing schools would improve, along with a fall in the results/standards of the church school.

@BlackBarbies can't speak for others but my grammar was NOTHING like comparable to private schools!

Yes it was academic and yes we have access to subjects like Latin.

But we were taught in leaky, poorly unheated class rooms, we had one lumpy playing field that was used for every sport and was a 15 minute walk away. There were music and drama clubs but there were music and drama clubs at the local comps as well.

Things were so tight financially that we often ended up being given photocopied pages of text books or sharing one text book between two (always fun when to came to having to arrange who got it what night for home work)

Grammars account for less than 5% of all state secondary schools in England, and some areas have none at all so there wouldn’t be any need for someone to know about them 🤷‍♀️

Gobsmacked that you live in SW London and don't know about grammar schools - that's the reason lots of people live there! You have them in Kingston and Sutton :
Tiffin Boys
Tiffin Girls
Wilsons (boys)
Sutton Grammar (boys)
Wallington Boys
Wallington Girls
Nonsuch (girls)

But confusingly, Kingston Grammar School, who is directly opposite Tiffin Boys is in fact a co-ed private school!

No it's not knowing how certain parts of the country work. No grammar school system where I am- 2 local schools still have grammar in the name but they are not selective. Have lived in the same area my whole life so to me knowing about the grammar system would be comparable to knowing about the Scottish education system, I have a vague idea but that's it.

I also hadn't heard of a grammat school until joining mumsnet

Well seeing as there’s only 163 grammer schools in England, I wouldn’t compare that to not knowing how this country works. The closest grammer school is 1hr 10mins away so not sure why/how I’d know of it’s existence?

I’m 23 years old and I went to an Academy in Westminster. We hardly spent our time in the playground talking about grammer schools that were all the way in Kingston and Sutton. We didn’t even know these places existed!

Not sure why people are so snarky because I haven’t heard of something that’s common to other people. Round here you either go to a standard secondary school or an Academy. That’s it

No, it had “Grammar” in the name. It was not the same as what is commonly meant by “a grammar school”.

Think of it like this - my dog is called Penny the Poodle. She’s an Alsatian. Calling her A Poodle doesn’t make her a Poodle.

Any more than say not knowing how the benefit system works if you have never had to claim benefits? How the public transport works in a city you never go to? How private healthcare works when you will never be able to afford it?
We all have different life experiences and need to know different things accordingly.

I went to a state Grammar school in the 60’s, having passed my 11+ without any extra tuition, which, even if it had been ‘a thing’ then, my parents would not have been able to afford. To be honest, I don’t even think we were told we were taking an 11+, we just did various tests from time to time, and this was probably just another lot. Nothing really different.

Selective schools were then the only type in the state system, as far as I am aware, and just meant that education was geared towards the assessed needs of the students. It certainly didn’t mean that you were ‘thick’ as a pp suggested, but if pupils were keen to learn a trade as a future career, then a Secondary Modern school was considered to be the ideal scenario. Where on earth would we be without plumbers/electricians/mechanics etc. Not everyone wants or needs to go on to higher education or university, and having schools with a different focus served pupils well.

Some areas have retained Grammar Schools alongside Comprehensives. I have always felt that there should be a choice.

I never, ever visit Kingston or Sutton so I wouldn’t know about them! I’m from Brixton/Stockwell and have no reason to go that far out tbh

@BlackBarbies In our region, some of the city authorities retained grammar schools, and there is one super-selective grammar school which regularly appears in top 10 schools by A level results. IIRC, the grammars take about the top 20%, but the super-selective only takes the top 8-10%.

And on your other point, if parents have been paying for primary private prep, the relief of not having to find the money for fees every term is immense. But the grammar schools academically stack up very well against the better private schools.

Maybe your mistake was saying SW London rather than South London OP 😁