What the heck is a grammer school?

[BlackBarbies]

Posting here for traffic!

Born and raised in South West London and still live here now. I’ve never heard of a grammar school until joining MN a couple of years ago.

Is it a primary school, is it a secondary school? Is it private or public? If it’s public, then why is it called a grammer school? Is it only available for certain types of children or something? I literally have no clue what a grammer school is so I’m happy to be enlightened!

Also, are there any in SW London? I’m genuinely intrigued as to how I’ve never come across one before

@weirdoboelady I'm guessing you wouldn't recommend this?!

For a few decades from the 40s to 70s (I think) the 11+ exam was mandatory for all English school children. The brightest academically who passed 11+ would go to grammar school, the ones who didn’t pass went to secondary moderns.

This cruelly split kids and told a cohort at 11 that they weren’t that bright - but it was a blunt instrument and many were left with a poorer education than they should have had. Some people see grammars as a good thing for giving good opportunities to poor kids, but even for children who got in from poorer backgrounds they didn’t always work. My DM went to one in Liverpool in the 1960s- because she was from a council estate she was put at the back of the class and ignored.

The exam is still mandatory in Buckinghamshire, Kent, Lincolnshire and parts of Birmingham. In other parts of the country the exam is optional and some grammars still exist in places like Poole and Bournemouth. Meanwhile some counties, like Hampshire, have none.

They can be great for the kids who get in, but very competitive and nowadays middle class parents game the system to help their DC pass the exam. It’s a very cruel system for those who don’t get in.

Down in bournemouth & poole we have four state grammar schools. Two for girls. Two for boys. 11+ pass needed. Over subscribed. And over thought of. I wish our son hadn’t passed the test and gone to one

‘Public’ schools were called that because when they were founded centuries ago, they were originally set up for the education of children of comparatively humble background, at a time when only royalty, nobility and those in the Church had any kind of education at all.

Since then, education has expanded massively and the original ‘public’ schools have morphed into expensive institutions burdened by long history and a rather exclusive clientele.

Nope. Private schools can have the word “grammar” in their names.

“Grammar school” in England means a selective state school. I can guarantee that no teacher working in a private school with “grammar” in its name would say that they worked in “a grammar school”.

And some are now comprehensive but retain grammar in the name. They were originally called that because they taught Latin grammar.

State grammar schools are actually relatively cash-poor compared to state comprehensives as they have far fewer Pupil Premium pupils, top ups etc.

I'd agree that they receive less central funding, in general, but that doesn't necessarily translate to them being cash-poor. In some areas parents of DCs who get into grammar school are so relieved that they don't have to shell out for private school they make quite generous donations to any appeals for money from the schools…

@VestaTilley, I think what you actually mean is that some areas of the country operate an 'opt out' system ie all DCs are entered for the 11+ unless their parents specifically withdraw them from it. Nowhere operates a mandatory system where DCs are forced to take the 11+.

Our DS at grammar school spent 5 years being told he was bottom of the year and had to try harder. I used to point out someone had to be bottom. Got told that unless you got 7+ you were thick.

he attained 9 passes last year - good passes - 5,6 and 7 grades.

went to enrol at college. They said these are excellent grades. You should have seen the smile on DS face. First time someone told him he did well (apart from us!).

wish he hadn’t passed the 11+ …..

It's all a bit outdated. We don't have this in Scotland. Just private or state schools and you can see which are better performing state schools through league tables and live in that catchment.

The commuting at the time - NOT. The education - very much so. I have benefited a lot from it and believe in streamed education (controversial, I know. But I also believe most types of specialist education - for example, developing and valuing craftspeople, as a balance). And the commuting would be so much easier nowadays, with a smart phone and Google maps to give you alternatives.

I live in the US and grammar schools are for kindergarten thru sixth grade. We then have middle school, high school, and college.

You can do what my immigrant relatives did and move into a grammar area - into a grotty bedsit initially, then a small flat, then a small house - then make sure your children apply themselves in primary school and get in.

You can absolutely make sure your children will get in. You encourage them to focus on their schoolwork, you make sure they are reading way beyond what's expected in school, you chat woth them about what they're reading, you buy books and read them yourself, you spend time with your children doing mental arithmetic, you make sure they're working ahead in maths, you make them learn a musical instrument and play a sport. You chat with them about their struggles and you encourage them to persevere.

Do you think children arrive at age 10/ 11 with a chance to get into a grammar school or a bursary at an independent school straight out of thin air? That it's all natural intelligence and no parental input day after day for years and years?

I'm not talking about hothousing here. I'm talking about parents quietly making sure their children are prepared for the exam, and equipped with the focus and the mindset to succeed once they get to the school that will launch them into university.

It is indeed quite obvious why some people might never have heard of them, and it's not because there are not a lot of grammar schools.

Let's expand that - there's only one London, one Liverpool, one Manchester, one Birmingham, one Glasgow, one Belfast - so it would be perfectly reasonable to not know anything about any of those places. They might be as far as fifty miles away, too. Who knows, who cares?

In Northern Ireland we still have many grammar schools because we did not follow the rest of the UK in getting rid of the grammar school system.
We have "controlled grammars" and "voluntary grammars". Some voluntary grammars are private fee-paying independent schools. Some are boarding schools.

At primary level, we have prep schools (fee-paying independents schools) and feeder schools. Feeder schools are linked with, but not part of, certain grammar schools. Pupils from feeders will get more "points" when their linked grammar schools are selecting pupils. These primary schools are very popular and oversubscribed, so people usually have to start planning from birth on how to meet the admissions criteria.

Grammar schools are all very academic. Their goal is to send people to university, rather than into the workplace at 18-years-old. Something like 43% of children here go to grammar school.

I got in to mine via the 11+ with no tutoring or practice (just naturally smart). But I had a terrible experience because I had undiagnosed ASD and ADHD when I started and the school didn't know how to handle it so we pretty much just gave up on each other. They liked academic children who could keep up with no fuss. I would like to think things have improved since then.

Have you ever heard of the signs in boarding house windows of yore that read "No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish"?

If you're the child of immigrants with an obviously foreign surname that announces you're from a specific, despised immigrant group, or your skin colour isn't what might be called traditionally Anglo Saxon, you tend to have less sanguine ideas about your chances or your children's chances of non academic forms of intelligence getting them ahead in the UK.

The idea that you'll find your place and do ok is one that comes from a place of privilege, both class-based and educational.

There are lots of people who are ready and willing to tell you what your place is and keep you firmly in it if you're not what they consider a traditionally British person.

My friends who arrived in the UK in the 80s and had children in the 90s and beyond didn't find things had changed all that much from the era of the boarding house signs.

The RC community in NI, which found itself discriminated against in significant ways, responded by focusing on education and sending children to university. Even today, working glass protestant boys have the lowest level of academic attainment in NI. It is simply not possible that these boys all have a different form of non-academic intelligence. The culture of a community matters, and its level of engagement with the education system too.

The idea that there are separate forms of intelligence only feeds the very quaint notion that the power elite of the UK have a God-given right to be where they are and do what they do by dint of their special academic intelligence. Regardless of how often it's claimed that all the different forms of intelligence are equal, the fact remains that certain forms seem to result in being funneled into certain schools and universities and on to certain careers.

They happen to be the careers where capital and power are concentrated. You don't have to be an immigrant to be concerned about the almost complete exclusion of people from backgrounds outside of the traditional prep-public/ grammar/ independent-route into law, finance, medicine, and the upper echelons of politics. As seen here, it's something that has gone unnoticed, but it's the 800lb gorilla in the room.

There are very few people who are so thick that they couldn't do well academically if pushed and encouraged and properly taught. Giving up on children shouldn't be an option. It happens across the board in English schools, beginning with setting in primary schools.

I am saying that unless you occupy a place of considerable privilege in the UK, you should be actively focusing your child's attention on their academic performance and doing whatever it takes to keep your child from becoming one of the huge number of academic casualties the system as currently constituted is designed to create.

I do live in the US, but as I stated, I have relatives and friends in the UK, people from several different generations. My relatives and friends and I talk about our lives and our children's lives, and we compare and contrast our experiences and observations across three education systems.

And LOL, but it is very clear that I know far more about how the UK works than many posters here do, in particular how the education system is the major prop of the class system, functioning as it does to produce an elite (accepted because of a notion of 'natural intelligence') and a massive number of educational casualties. A bonus for the elite is the number of people who are completely lacking in curiosity about how their own country works.

The fact that grammar provision varies from area to area is not an excuse for knowing nothing about how the elite achieved its current shape and form and how the non-comprehensive school pipeline continues to produce future Tory PMs and leaders in the realms of finance and law and medicine.

My relatives and friends and I talk about our lives and our children's lives, and we compare and contrast our experiences and observations across three education systems.

when do you find the time @mathanxiety ? You seem to be on mumsnet posting long posts all day every day with many threads on the go!!

Grammar schools have fallen in and out of fashion over the years. They are considered better for academically gifted children as they work at a faster pace with a high workload so tend to have much more focus on getting those exam results.

Selection is because children not suited to this will not do well there and will hold brighter kids back by slowing down lessons.

It's considered a good alternative to fee paying schools (private) but you won't get free school bus entitlement as that only applies to your nearest secondary school. Uniform can be a little more than other schools but only because you have to buy a blazer and lots of sports kit.
They still have free school meal entitlement and other financial help for trips though.
You have to apply to sit 11+ at least a year in advance (although mine did a late entry). If you want to pick a Grammar school it's a good idea to phone them for a chat about deadlines and preparing for 11+ because they don't all use the same exam board and you'd want to practise 11+ papers for the correct one.
Hope that helps. I can't believe the people sneering, not everyone is lucky enough to have the best education.

I can't believe the people sneering, not everyone is lucky enough to have the best education.

I am not reading sneering in this, just how divisive the current grammar school system is. To write off a child at 10 or 11 is very divisive. At least they all get to sit GCSEs now. Back in my day you couldn't take O levels in secondary moderns, just CSEs.

Children from poorer families simply don't have the means to pay for the intense tutoring that happens, so you generally find that it is children from wealthier families who end up in grammar school. Inequality at its finest.

I'm very glad that we have no grammar schools in our county.

2 points about kent test. It's not compulsory, you sign your kid up to it. Not a year in advance, in the June of yr5 and they take the test in September Yr 6.

1 more, whilst most are single sex 3 I can think of are mixed. One in Canterbury, one Cranbrook and one faversham.

What a load of bollocksnot everyone is academic 🙄

Yeah right 🙄