to think that people who attack "woke" shouldn't be surprised when institutions like the Met Police are found to be institutionally sexist, racist, homophobic etc

[cakeorwine]

It reminds me of the scene in Casablanca when the police inspector is shocked at finding gambling at Ricks.

The right wing media attack "woke" all the time. There seems to be an issue when people speak up, try to do things differently, try to change a culture at a place.

And then they act shocked when it's found that the Met Police have a culture of misogyny, racism, homophobia etc.

Given all the attacks on people who try to change a culture, to try to get people to see other points of view, to try to speak up about diversity issues, it's not surprising that it doesn't seem to have been taken seriously and tolerated as trying to make changes would be seen as "woke" and the right wing media would turn on them.

We had a lot of the same arguments around the term PC in the 80s and 90s. Lots of frothing at the mouth around people wanting to use chair person, firefighter instead of chairman and fireman etc. Also the supposedly 'PC'.policing of racist terms used to describe black and Asian people was not always popular. Apparently free speech iwas being attacked (eye roll)

None of it worked really though as we did change the words so they are now in common usage an we also did make certain terms absolutely not acceptable to say out loud .

However I would say that some of the things being insisted on by what is sometimes referred to as the ' woke' brigade nowadays is not about changing cultural stereotypes and prejudices but about flying in the face ot reality and science . This means I struggle with some of it . That doesn't mean I don't think we should continue to fight against biases and predjudice, just that the definition of what we mean by that has begun to be difficult.

If we can't actually agree on a definition of what makes up a specific group and we in fact seem to be saying that defining a group is a bad thing in and of itself ( don't label me , I am who I am etc) then it is hard to work out how to safeguard that groups' rights.

Arguing that every individual has rights is fine but it really only gets you so far and creates so many inconsistencies in how to apply those rights and whose rights take precedence in real life situations .

Without a common understanding of how a group of people is defined we can't protect their rights.

You conveniently ignore the conflict of interests involved in so much wokeness, OP. The women's rights being trampled over by aUt OgYnEPhiLe males delighted to be let loose in women's loos and changing rooms. The men pushing their way into lesbian events, seeking the ultimate thrill of sex with a lesbian. The men pushing women out of women's sport because the women can never win. You're being disingenuous.

Here's a TV programme to watch, looking at the corruption in the Met in the 60s and 70s — long before Political Correctness Gone Mad, long before Woke.
There always has been and always will be corruption in institutions.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000v4h4

All the shit with wokeness — the rainbow lanyards, the EDI training, the investigations into spurious claims of threatening ribbons and stickers, the silencing, the snitching on a colleague who refuses to go along with TWAW — is distracting attention from what's going badly wrong in the police, the NHS etc.

"Woke" is inherently" misogynistic and homophobic as far as I can see so I'm not sure I agree with your conclusions.

Actually I think woke is the problem. The met are woke, by which I mean they pay lip service to equality and diversity, do the training, go to pride etc. But, their fundamental culture is still aggressive and intolerant. This for me is what woke actually is: deep hypocrisy. It’s not the same as genuine tolerance and fairness.

Woke we could argue Is what has allowed and enabled the met to continue with its homophobia, misogyny etc

They use the right words and do the right training and attend the right events and pat themselves on the back that they are the good guys

And like most self proclaimed woke people they don't engage their brains and look at the evidence in front of them

They could write a paper on how marginalised sone group as a result of history is and completely fail to see it in front of their noses today

No.

"Woke" is basically authoritarian id politics that rejects many of the core values of liberal democracy - you know, that thing that passed on to you all those values about the inherent dignity of all people, the value of intellectual discourse, and all the rest. It's also, among other things, a deeply sexist and racist and every other "ist" ideology.

People who unthinkingly accept that this is what it means to be antiracist or whatever are, I am afraid, going to be quite surprised at the world this thinking creates.

Sorry, you mean the same woke agenda that arrests women for ribbons? If we stopped objecting to that, misogyny would stop? There I was thinking that’s a direct example of misogyny. Silly me!

By the way, who is shocked about this? No one I know…

Your thinking is very binary OP. 😉

Actually I think woke is the problem. The met are woke, by which I mean they pay lip service to equality and diversity, do the training, go to pride etc. But, their fundamental culture is still aggressive and intolerant. This for me is what woke actually is: deep hypocrisy. It’s not the same as genuine tolerance and fairness.
I think you've got a point here.

No amount of social media posts, lanyards and performative caring is going to be making society safer for women, nor is it going to improve the institutional racism and institutional misogyny running through the organisation.

I'd rather the police listened to victims of VAWG and tackling crime than attending EDI workshops and telling people off for wrongthink.

That's also because some people just don't understand what ''woke'' means and how the movement started.

It has been cleverly turned by the right wing media and politicians into an insult when in fact it was simply a reaction against racism and inequalities and was about social justice.

I don't see why anyone would have a problem with challenging racism, sexism, xenophobia and social inequalities. There is nothing extreme about this.

It is the same thing that was done to the word ''feminist''. Because men could not cope with the concept they started the push to describe feminist a ''men-haters'', ''ugly women'' and so on to convince women not to want to be associated with that word either.

This.

Pleased to see the comments on this thread generally.

Like the word ‘woman’, the word ‘woke’ has many meanings 😉😉😉

This, for me, is the issue. A lot of what "woke" stands for is overt women-hating.

I have been very intensely lectured on for eg how not allowing men who identify as women into DA services is akin to evil by a stereotypical bearded white male a few times and it felt, to me as an actual women, as a very clear demonstration of male control and power.

I absolutely support most lefty liberal views and expect and want our police forces to police by earned consent, and for them to be a safe resource for all, including the most marginalised. This does not mean I think they should be attending pride to be photographed with the furries, nor do I think harassing women for wrong think tweets is a good use of their time.

That's also because some people just don't understand what ''woke'' means and how the movement started.

That's interesting background, in fact there was a good Radio 4 programme about it the other week, but I'm more interested in how "woke" thinking manifests in the current day, what its excesses look like, and what the consequences will be of institutions uncritically getting on board.

I understand how woke started

I also understand that it's not been corrupted by the right , but by people who adopt the label and then demonstrate why they actually are totally asleep to discrimination and hatred of "other "

Who use it as a gang in which you have to be a member

I’m glad the majority is yabu as the op’s thinking is muddled.

I’d look to the mayor as responsible for setting policing and crime priorities and ask how woke they are and what accountability they have

Agree with a lot of the comments here.

Woke doesn’t work. The police may attend Pride and have rainbow police cars but it didn’t make them properly investigate the murder of gay men in London did it?

www.thejusticegap.com/homophobic-assumptions-led-to-botched-stephen-port-investigation-watchdog-claims/

Given all the attacks on people who try to change a culture, to try to get people to see other points of view, to try to speak up about diversity issues, it's not surprising that it doesn't seem to have been taken seriously and tolerated as trying to make changes would be seen as "woke" and the right wing media would turn on them.

//

You could actually apply this statement in the opposite direction. There are issues especially pertaining to the attack on womens rights where people who try to speak up and challenge are no platformed, dismissed from jobs, doxxed online, have meetings cancelled, and openly receive rape and death threats to themselves and their family.

From those pushing so-called tolerance and diversity.

However in regards to the Met and headlines today I absolutely welcome the investigations and sadly, I'm not at all surprised by findings

And I think it's too black and white to lump anyone challenging these issues together with "the right wing".

In life there will be times you agree with something someone says while abhorring many of their other opinions. That's being an adult.

Agree

Can you give an example of a reasonable person asking for reasonable change who has been vilified as woke?

Basically it's the equivalent of Ofsted, wasting money on the tick box agenda rather then the main reason the institutions are here in the first place.

Me too. Isn’t the mayor drowning in rainbows and sound bites?

This. It's sod all to do with 'woke'.

Brilliant comments. I liked this from @@LucidLamp

"Actually that's one of the reason I don't like the woke / identity politics agenda. Which has been adopted enthusiastically by the police by the way.
To me it prioritises meaningless gestures and enforced conformity of thought whilst doing nothing to tackle actual sexism, racism and homophobia".

Perfectly exemplified by the Met.