Are junior docs really only on £14.09 per hour?

[yawningmorning]

That is so low.

I've seen the headline that you can earn more per hour working in pret.

No wonder they are striking.

But we need medicine to be open to everyone not just the elite who have parents who can pay.

Do we really want becoming a doctor to be limited to children of the well off? Just because doctors were well off, doesn't mean they are now.

I know doctors coming up to retirement (but younger than my parents) who live in massive country houses, my own generation have managed to stretch to a new build house on a reasonable estate with a not too horrid commute but definitely won't have the £££ to help their kids avoid uni fees (or send kids private like our parents did). This seems to be true to for all non city professionals - current salaries don't cover anywhere near as much as they used to and the commuting costs have increased as parking used to be free - fuel costs are massively more and public transport is more expensive while services have been cut...

In 2008 the BMA voted to limit the number of medical students.

But we do. A friend of mine has recently become a junior doctor, having been a nurse for years. She's come from a very modest background and studied incredibly hard. This route is open to all I believe.

I'm sure someone will come along and tell me she's not a real junior doctor and that the scheme is rubbish though.

Agreed. However the OP's title and point only applies to newly qualified. As a "junior" progresses so does their pay.

I'm afraid you knowledge is pretty limited if you believe that doctors are the only ones with these types of decisions and consequences. 🙄

Before the inevitable benign quoting of my post do your own research.

I completely sympathise with the horrendous working conditions that your management, union and government can't seem to solve. It really is a disgrace and noone should have to put up with it.

But taking over 20 years to arrive at six figures is not a complaint that anyone is going to take seriously. Like many experience based fields, there's no quick route to a decent salary as you need to gain the knowledge and experience. But six figures is a very good salary, especially when you factor in the pension etc.

I'm not saying it is. It's on the back of a quote where someone said you quickly reach 6 figures. I don't think 20 plus years is quick. I'd personally, like to have conditions improved. More time with family etc. I honestly wouldn't do the job again and having seen my working life, none of my children wish to become doctors. When I started, there was lots of children of doctors in my year. The personal sacrifice has been too big for the renumeration. The contempt some posters have for HCPs is awful too. Pay erosion is real regardless of an individuals thoughts about it and if you want to continue to recruit bright, capable individuals, pay will need to keep up with fellow professionals. It was relatively unheard of for juniors to leave the profession after the registration year. It's now common. If we want a good quality healthcare system then, we cannot allow that to happen.

@Salverus I find your posts to be really insulting. I have five top grade A Levels, two Masters degrees, including one from Cambridge, and I won a scholarship to Harvard.

I chose to become a teacher because I wanted to help other people to succeed.

I don't work in the classroom anymore because pay and conditions are shocking, but I did do a 15 year stint.
Another factor in my decision to quit was the absolutely awful attitude towards teachers from people who have no idea what it's like.

This thread isn't about teachers (for once).

I'm sure there are some very highly qualified teachers. It is also possible to become a teacher with the bare minimum of qualifications. That isn't the case with doctors.

I have little sympathy for them and don’t think many members of the public will have sympathy either. They have had below inflation pay rises for the past 10 years? So what. So have the vast majority of the working public! They have a job for life. The whole ‘if we don’t pay them more then they’ll move abroad’ is about as ethical as tax-dodging non-doms. We invest so much money in training doctors - £250k per doctor - and there are 15 applicants for every place at medical school. We need to start requiring UK medical students agree to the equivalent of 20 years of NHS service before giving them a place.

My first job in the NHS, as a Biomedical Scientist with a BSc Hons in Biomedical Sciences was LESS than I'd have got working a supermarket at the time. It was also below minimum wage, which payroll only realised when I complained. My pay went up from £7,200 to £9,100 from memory so was still a pittance. This was "only" 24 years ago.

The £9k tuition fees started in 2012, so the first cohort of doctors who paid those fees will have graduated and started working less than 6 years ago. I don’t think that applies to most Uk doctors working today.

Also, plenty of people achieve very high grades who go on to not become doctors.

it’s not like you can say none of them went into this career with their eyes open… nobody forces them!

I fullly support the junior doctors . All lot of the NHS current problems are are due to staff shortages and they will get worse as junior doctors vote with h their feet and leave , and senior ones stop working as the ridiculous pension rules cost them to stay on even if they want to

@Salverus you were the one who compared teachers to doctors.
Your last remark just confirms your contempt.

Not all medical degrees are equal in terms of entry requirements either.

As I was driving past the Chelsea and Westminster picket line today majority of cars honked their horns in support

I agree. Pay erosion is real but isn't exclusive to HCP's and civil servants in general.

The economy has been pretty dire since 2008 and coupled with a useless government, most of the UK has seen their pay eroded over the last 15 years. This isn't a race to the bottom but in the private sector, if your business isn't profitable, you're either made redundant, lose your pension pot or have a pay freeze. That's the reality for the rest of us that most civil servants just don't understand because you're completely insulated.

Obviously the upshot of a poor economy and stagnant wages is lower tax receipts, which impacts directly on civil servant salaries. I think this is what divides public opinion generally. Asking for a pay rise isn't unreasonable but complaining because doctors think they're owed 30% or more is. And especially after the pandemic when billions have been lost from the public purse.

You're right that we need good salaries to attract the best, but that's idealism. This applies to the private sector too but we sadly don't live in an ideal world and a great many industries can no longer pay the best salaries. If/when our economy is booming again (I live and hope!) I'd expect things to be different but we're a long way from that.

£119k when you have been a consultant for 20 years

so usually we’ll into your 50s at that stage

what nonsense some posters have said, talking about ‘hundreds of thousands’. A new consultant is paid £84k. And it’s not comparable to other countries, no- that’s why we have so many vacant posts here.

Absolutely. In the private sector if your employer is doing badly you don’t get a pay rise. Guess what drs? Your employer is doing badly.

@Salverus they’re also not taking tech company levels of risk. They’re effectively in a job for life if they’re competent. That’s not the case for those in the private sector. Who also don’t get the pensions that doctors get.

Late 40s to be earning 6 figures isn’t that dissimilar to many jobs outside the City, and is also a very secure job unlike most private sector roles… all of which is known at the beginning of any professional career. Medicine is a relatively low risk way of earning well above average for an entire career.

Just wow.

Insightful comment. And who said doctors were poor communicators ;) I’m

When your not dealing with someone else's life I am sure you are more likely to have a risk taking attitude. It's a daft comparison.

The wilful ignorance of people is terrifying, and also how little they seem to care about the treatment and care they will inevitably need to access at some point in their life when they are frail, vulnerable and potentially dying.

People complaining about rich people:
Society should be more equal. People shouldn't earn huge amounts more than others. We should value everyone even those who work in menial jobs.

The same people:
Junior doctors arent paid enough. They should be paid more from the day they start. They are paid the same as people who are unskilled and unqualified in lowly service industry jobs. It's outrageous.

Which is it? I'm kinda fed up of it.

It's right that you progress in your career if you gain experience. If you are a junior doctor you are still training. Having an a level in biology compared to someone who doesn't have any doesn't make you more worthwhile to society. It's the experience on the job which is of added value to society. Equally that unqualified staffer at pret, might go on to catering and work their way up to being a top chef if they take the right options.

I do think there's absolute nonsense and cognitive dissonance on this subject where you've got these ultra lefties advocating for magic thinking.

The problem junior doctors face isn't pay. It's working conditions.

250k for training is just a nonsense figure that no one can ever really show the workings for (and if unis are giving that much to the nhs for training med students it’s not ring fenced for training and ends up being spent on patient care anyway).

university of Buckingham (as in the fully private one) charges 175k for a 5 year medical degree so that is likely near actual cost (and the uni makes a profit so probably over cost)

so current Fy1 doctors who have paid 90k in fees have paid more than half of the cost of their training at least.

postgraduate training costs often quoted are pretty much only consisting of the wage bill of the doctors in training. As in the numbers flung about for the money spent on post grad training by the nhs is actually the wages of the junior doctors themselves - no actual training going on for that money, it’s just what we’re paid to go to work. The “training bits” are paid by the doctors themselves - the courses, exams, overly expensive online portfolio thing to record case studies and courses, membership of a royal college, gmc and professional insurance. We do have a few hours a week where we go for local “teaching” but this is peer teaching - we take turns to teach each other something - no great expense to anyone especially as now post covid it’s on teams so they don’t even have to pay for a room for us to use.