Are junior docs really only on £14.09 per hour?

[yawningmorning]

That is so low.

I've seen the headline that you can earn more per hour working in pret.

No wonder they are striking.

I'm not a doctor.

Such absolute rubbish. Doctors are not rich. Footballers and Investment Bankers are rich. Doctors are professionals whose skillset and the responsibility they carry right from when they start as F1s mean they merit a decent salary. An A level in Biology doesn't mean that you are more useful to society. Well, get your barista (who may or may not go on to be a top chef) to do your quadruple bypass then.

You’re conflating taking risks in a job, which whether you’re in tech, medicine, flying or pretty much any sector, could lead to negative consequences (and it’s not just doctors dealing with lives - pilots, train drivers, bus drivers all have 50/100/300/500 people’s lives in their hands) with sector risks. Tech is renowned for boom
and bust….there’s a real chance of restructure or worse periodically. The same is true across most of the private sector. It’s not true in medicine. If you don’t take risks in the job, the sector itself is pretty much recession and economy proof in the short/medium term.

You’re also not helping the cause by painting anyone who disagrees with your opinion as wilfully ignorant. And being terrified of someone who disagrees with you really isn’t healthy!!

My late husband was chronically ill for over 20 hearts before he died. I saw first hand the dedication some medical staff had, and I’m grateful for what they did in difficult working conditions. They are not messiahs though. They could learn a lot from the airline industries transparency around accidents. They could learn a lot from the other professions about communication. And, dare I say it, making a stand about working conditions. The BMA has failed miserably there compared to the pilots or rai workers unions.

When people talk about the need for society to be more equal and the mega rich hording all the wealth, it’s not normally junior doctors on £30-£40k that people are thinking of. Bizarre that people are trying to peg them as extremely well-off.

Idiotic short term thinking that led us to this mess in the first place.

The insistence on austerity that is now 13 years of underfunding has resulted in crisis. There are areas of the public sector that need investment in order to protect the economy and the government has failed to understand that for over a decade now.

Dr in hospitals also work 24/7 shift pattern including days like Xmas etc . Most graduates,szp teachers do not, not to mention risks involved. I wish people would stop lining drs up woth other grads. They're a world apart. 7 years training for a start.

The thing is Not every junior doctors will become a consultant, not all juniors are on training contracts. That dosent mean that those who will not become consultants of GPs are rubbish doctors and deserve to be paid rubbish. We need junior doctors (or non consultant/GP grade doctors) to run the hospital wards - to examine and provide initial treatment of the unwell patient, to put the iv lines in, interpret the chest x rays, take and read the ecgs, to prescribe the medications and fluids, to be on the crash team providing cpr, to talk to relatives and patients, to complete the mounds of paperwork, to write the sick notes, ask about the care provision at home etc…. to Being a non consultant hospital doctor who provides good day to day care of patients is a responsible job in itself and should be recognised as such.

What a consultant in a particular speciality does day in day out has often very little to do with what the juniors working in their team do. For example A junior doctor working on a surgical ward is providing medical care of the patient not operating, the junior doctor in a psychiatric ward is providing GP style services to the patients not doing psychiatry . The consultant surgeon or consultant psychiatrist isn’t providing training or supervision to the junior doctor in how to care for the day to day medical care of the patient. The junior doctor is fully qualified for providing this already (it’s what medical school was for, f1s should have some supervision however ). Last week juniors all over the country were teaching/refreshing their consultants how to prescribe drugs on the computer systems, how to work the ecg machines and in some places crash courses on how to obtain IV acsess in preparation for the strike.

being a hospital doctor- being responsible for the day to day health of a ward of patients is something that should be recognised by pay considerably above £16.03 an hour (that’s the f2 wage so when you are no longer being technically supervised in your basic work, £14.09 is for f1). It dosent matter what the f2 may go on to earn in a different job one day because the job they are doing now needs doing well and needs high quality people doing it. There are loads and loads of vacancies across the nhs at this (sho) level Showing that the job itself isn’t paid enough to make it worth peoples while. The nhs recruits massively into the non training junior roles from abroad as they can’t get uk grads to do it for the wage.
89k (consultant entry pay) for the work an ward doctor does would be ridiculous but the nhs does need f1s and other grades of ward doctor to function. Places that don’t have enough ward doctors have started to employ PA (physician assistants) for more than they pay the f1s and many of them can’t prescribe and need a qualified doctor to supervise them.

there is a whole argument to fully reorganise medical training which would be imo a v good idea if they government weren’t likely to f it up.

We are at two different ends of the spectrum and I imagine there is no hope to meet in the middle.

I work in a high risk, high reward job in finance which is remunerated accordingly to factor in the risk of messing up in a decision (as you mention). However, I would not want to undertake a role in medicine as I would not want to make treatment decisions on a daily basis that could affect someone's life for years to come.

You also say train drivers and pilots have people's lives in their hands which is also true but once again they are not making the same kind of life, death or life changing decisions on a daily basis as a medic.

I also do not think doctors are infallible or 'the messiah'. The same with any industry, there are poor quality drs and those that need to be put out to pasture. However, there are very few people who are able or would want to be put in situations where you are faced with making decisions about the best form of treatment for a dying patient and do that everyday. You are attempting to compare apples and oranges......healthcare is a unique work environment and all staff involved deserve pay restoration at the very least.

The doctors need to dig deep, be brave and stay the course because unfortunately they are not getting the support and understanding they deserve.

no it’s not an automatic pay rise per year worked nor is it guaranteed progression from medical school to consulstant hood.

It’s pay nodal points not years worked. You don’t go up a pay scale point per year worked automatically. You either have to apply for a new job to move up or if in a longer contract pass exams and appraisals.

You Pass medical school and apply for foundation - you get a two year nhs training contract
then get paid at point one is f1
if you pass f1 year (appraisal, portfolio of work) of you go do indeed go to point two for a year

your employment contract then ends. No automatic progression anywhere

You can then apply for a training or non training post in a certain speciality. Both you are paid at point three (though some places pay non training at point two). You then stay at point 3 for at least two years after which your contract often ends with no automatic progression (but in a few specialitys continues)

For those whoes contract ends after point two you to get to point four you must then apply for a new job for which you must have passed a new set of exams. For those lucky enough to be on a run through contract to get to point four you still need to pass exams and yearly appraisals - if you don’t pass them you are usually given an extra six months at point three to try again and if not you don’t get to stay where you are at point three, nope your fired.

if at any point you don’t pass an exam (or can’t afford an exam because they cost about 1k a pop and their not paid for) you get 6 months more employment at your current level to try and fix it and then your out. You can then take a non training job at whatever level pay you have made it to but you will then never progress up the pay scale - many training contracts have a “no second chances rule” so if you fail or can’t afford to sit you can never come back to training and your wages will not progress ever

It’s not saying that they should be paid more because they have an at A level in biology here it’s saying they should be paid more because they have a medical degree (and at least when I went to medical school an A level in biology was not an entry requirement)

we are not fully trained consultants or GPs yes, but from F2 on they are fully trained doctors. They are fully qualified and trained to do the job they are doing day to day (hospital ward doctor). We are also training to do another job (consultant/GP) on the side. We would like to be paid a proper wage for the day to day job we do which is complex and requires at least five years undergrad (medical school) and one year probation (f1) of study to do.

Just for some perspective, basic pay without any add-ons like unsocial working hours, overtime etc.:
First year (not qualified, still training), doctors earn more than 57% of the population (i.e. most people are earning less than unqualified doctors in the first year)
2nd year - doctors earn more than 67% of the population
3rd and 4th years - 75%
Years 5-7 doctors earn more than 86% of the population
Years 8-10 its 89% of the population

Then they move into consultancy, where the salary is better than between 95% and 97% of the population.

And then there is the problem that the additional benefits like pension contributions are so high that they hit the tax free limits for these benefits.

If I was to describe the salary of doctors in one word, I would use the word "Good".

@Qazwsxefv Well said.

@TreadLight and what you are spectacularly missing is that the calibre of the doctor is well within the top few percent of the population too. They would most likely have gone on to earn more in alternative professions. They could all have chosen different paths to medicine and outlearned most of the population because of their brains and attitude to work. PS I am not a doctor before you start accusing me of arrogance.

*outearned

The barristers on strike last summer are paid entirely from public funds though ie criminal barristers. They also most definitely do not have unlimited earning potential; it’s limited (many would say extremely limited) by the graduated fee scheme.

@TreadLight This does not take into account debt that doctors have (correct me if I'm wrong but most other healthcare degrees are funded). Neither does it take into account the hours actually worked. Doctors don't work 9-5 like they are contracted to. If there is a sick patient (there almost always is) they stay until they sort that out and hand over appropriately. They then go home and study for exams that they have to pay thousands to sit which is a requirement for their job. The study is all-consuming, they miss important life events such as best friends weddings (sometimes their own) because of out of hours on calls and/or studying commitments. They are also paying for indemnity, paying back debts etc and also parking. They commute to work and often pay for parking both at their hospital and street parking where they live. They also give up events like Christmas due to shift work. They come home still thinking about sick patients. They don't have protected "breaks" they eat and pee as the opportunity arises. Sometimes there is no time, they come home starving. They carry a bleep at all times, if that means they've finally had the chance to go to the toilet or sit down with their sandwich/coffee but the crash bleep goes off they drop everything and run. Every single doctor has experienced this, often. They then drive home having worked all night and carry that risk on that commute because very often where they live/their child goes to school etc is not where they work. The very nature of "junior doctor training" is rotating all around. As often as 3 months. It isnt feasible to move your whole life that frequently.

I absolutely agree with this .

I have no degrees, and only got a GCSE English (A for Spoken and B for coursework) when I was lucky enough to take that as part of a intro to Computing course many years ago (cough. 1999).
I have never been to Uni probably because I didn't want too but also I did not sit my A Levels (I went to college instead).
However, imho, I would definitely expect Junior Doctors to earn more per hour than a barista or a dustman. Absolutely.

@TreadLight

f1 is a qualified doctor - they have a medical degree. They are in a provisional registration year yes but that best thought of like having P plates rather than L plates on their car- they have passed there test they just have to not mess up for a year and then they are fully registered - there is no further exam they need to sit.

I’ve said above it’s not like you finish medical school and you get a job for life with the nhs and every year you get a pay rise up the pay scales. You get generally 2-3 year training contracts at certain points on the scale and when they are finished you can take and exam and then apply for a new job at a higher point in the scale. Saying y1 post qualification is paid this and y2 is paid this etc is not true.

It’s a reverse funnel - there are less jobs at each level you go up the scale. The system is designed that some people don’t progress up the levels and end up taking non training jobs at the top level they made it to. This is becuase the nhs needs more junior doctors at the lower levels doing the day to day work in hospitals than it needs consultants doing the fancy high level stuff. You don’t defend judge the wages of a Tesco checkout worker buy the saying well if they worked hard at their job and passed lots of exams and interviewed for a higher portion in the company like store manager they would be paid more. Junior doctor is a role that needs filling for the working of the health service and deserves a wage commiserate with the qualifications it demands and the responsibilities it entails.

I think doctors have also accepted working over hours etc for many years because ultimately they like the private work prize pot at the end. Like others have said the RMT and other unions have been stronger. I feel that Doctors often come from good backgrounds, worked hard and did what they are told. This hasn’t helped then or everyone who uses the NHS.too ready to accept poor conditions and practices!

Nah, they’ll just move abroad where they get better pay and work life balance.
same with nurses

My dc is a junior doctor, her friend just finished GP training, got a job asa GP. six months later was earning twice as much as a management consultant for one of the big five.
there are a lot of Doctors looking at their options

Yes, this is what I get paid. I qualified in 2020.

Really interesting views on this post. Those that think doctors get paid enough probably don’t have close friends or family that work in the profession. The amount of dedication and sacrifice that’s needed to continue through medical school and training is intense. The salary is good when you see it on paper but when you take into account the debts accrued through training, relocation and vast commuting expenses, indemnity insurances etc. it is pittance. Perhaps we need to look at a more Scandinavian model of training our HCP’s where training expenses are covered by the state and thus more equal to those that enter employment straight from college.

No it's true! People think that a doctor is on fantastic wages but In reality they don't get the better wages until either consultant/ surgeon or a GP.

I really wish people would listen. This is why nurses, NHS staff and doctors are striking!

Bil is a doctor. Sil is a doctor. DS'S godmother is a doctor.