Are junior docs really only on £14.09 per hour?

[yawningmorning]

That is so low.

I've seen the headline that you can earn more per hour working in pret.

No wonder they are striking.

Insulting someone - or trying to - with, “Your an idiot” is just the height of irony, isn’t it?

Agreed. Not just barristers but I suspect most public service professionals when you work out the pay v hours they work. That's not taking away from junior Dr's though but enforces the impact of low pay on all public sector employees. At all ends of the scale the pay isn't right, I don't know how some admin staff across the public sector are managing tbh.

No. You are incorrect.

All barristers are lawyers. Not all lawyers are barristers.

Not all barristers are self employed. I've worked with many.

The attitudes of certain posters make me question who is on this thread. I don't care if this post gets deleted but the dismissal of highly qualified professionals need to earn a fair salary isn't normal think.

@FoxFeatures totally agree

Saw these exact comparisons on here during discussions about the barristers strikes. Same on the millionth post about teachers having the hardest jobs ever. They exist.

They need to be paid more. End of. I fully support them.

Exactly, I find these posts so disingenuous. Surprised OP didn't say that cleaners earn more 🙄

I'd also point out that there is a shortage of barristers doing legal aid work and plenty doing tax/corporate - ie they've followed the money to the lucrative areas of the profession with a view to long term earnings ...

This isn't a good thing for doctors either as A&E is basically an NHS monopoly and the costs of building a private A&E would be massive compared with the costs for equipping and running a hospital for planned routine surgeries.

When they were struggling to find a bed for DH to have chest surgery to investigate a mass, we couldn't go private because there were no private facilities with the kit needed in case things went wrong outside London...

So if we make doctors focus on the long term gains we will have very very few doctors in the non-lucrative specialisms like A&E...

The behaviour of our government towards our health professionals is sickening. I put the blame entirely on them and if people suffer worsening health or death it is on their head. They were given enough notice of this action and did nothing but alienate the profession further. Barclay didn't even show up to a vital negotiation meeting. I hope by the end of today, negotiation begins properly and the strikes called off for tomorrow and Wednesday.

I'm sorry but this is bollocks
The vast majority of drs do very little 'private' work and what they do isn't what you would consider 'private'
DHs private work is often stuff like DVLA treadmill tests.
Most of them care deeply for their patients and take pride in what they do at all levels of their careers and certainly do not 'experiment on the NHS' to service the rich in private care'
I'm sure there are some this characterisation fits for however it's a minority and it doesn't fit any of the many many drs I know.

Totally agree, it's really weird. Mumsnet sure isn't the place it once.was, that's for sure.

Just wanted to clarify a few points...

1. The term "junior doctor" refers to any medical professional (someone thats qualified from university in a degree in medicine which is 5-7 years full-time, a lot of exams, a lot of debt etc) right the way up until the day before you become a consultant or GP.
2. Not everyone becomes a consultant (or GP).
3. We are referring to people aged a minimum of 23 and there is no max. Many are in their 30s/40s/50s.
4. These are generally people who are high achievers right the way from their school, university and post-graduate training.
5. Post graduate "training" is exhausting. "Supervision" is from a far and very indirect bordering on non-existent. When anyone goes to A&E / any hospital speciality on a weekend or after 5pm any day/night of the week, no matter how "old" or experienced the doctor may look they are almost certainly a "junior doctor".
6. Training is disruptive - imagine being thrown around the UK for each step of your training (first of all, training is bloody difficult to get into especially in sought after specialities even more so in sought after locations). That's before we even consider the practical aspects - buying a house is incredibly difficult if constantly on the move, so paying rent for often decades is extortionate. Moving from friends/family is equally challenging. Maintaining a romantic relationship, likewise. So probably not a surprise that many doctors are with doctors.
7. The impact on personal life. Imagine constantly studying for exams in order to progress to one day become a consultant. This is studying around the clock during exam times. These people are 30-40s+ with families and children. Everyone has mum guilt, but now imagine the decisions doctor mums have to make - not knowing what time you'll leave work (its often a decision between a sick patient or your childs school play etc). Why dont they deserve A LOT more pay than baristas(/insert any other job)?

Finally, the NHS is crumbling. I think the general public need doctors a lot more than the other way round. A doctor can quit and with a British education/training are obviously easily employable anywhere in the UK. Yet many stay because of their social/personal reasons. Doctors are leaving though and who could blame them?

So you’re what in your 40s? So will be earning six figures for another 20 years? You’ll be fine

Sort of. At lowest base level with no other perks etc factored in. But their earning power does shoot up obvs.
but conditions are shit. It’s like teachers, the pay would be less of an issues if the working conditions weren’t so hard at the moment.

I think the general public need doctors a lot more than the other way round.

This condescending attitude towards the general public is why you will win ZERO support.

uk.indeed.com/q-pret-a-manger-jobs.html

unlikely to earn £14ph at Pret

They might well be on just over £14 an hour when they start in year 1, but in absolute terms their income is nearly £40k and by year 4 nearly £70k. So it seems to me the key issue is one of working conditions not pay. And I don’t doubt the working conditions are tough. Very tough in the first few years when you’re constantly moving around.

I think perhaps they’d get a little
more sympathy if they focussed on conditions, not pay which is, by any reasonable standards, not that bad.

@umpaumpajumps Not sure what that is supposed to mean.

I have experience working in healthcare but also in a different sector that involves travelling abroad and therefore have experience of healthcare in other countries.

I have thankfully never needed emergency care but expect, like most, that I probably will at some point in my lifetime. I know where I would prefer to for example, have a heart attack. There have been reports of waiting over 24 hours for an ambulance for a heart attack in the UK, and dying while waiting. It is absolutely not the fault of the paramedic/ambulance service nor the burnt out on A&E doctors. But from a patient perspective, care is almost undeniable better in other developed countries.

I have no children but many of my friends do, children often get unwell and as parents have been advised by the GP that the wait for an ambulance is so long that if able then to take their child in to children's A&E themselves. Some of the first hand stories I have heard are harrowing. So yes, I do think we as the general public need doctors so much more in general than the doctors need their careers. Obviously some may be tied down to the UK but many aren't, and many have already left for countries like Australia. On this thread alone we have seen ex NHS doctors now working elsewhere. Whether they want to work in medicine or in a different industry, these are highly qualified intelligent individuals who are "still studying" in medicine so not the greatest leap to completely change careers and retrain - they excel at studying. As a country though, the NHS is definitely crumbling, its in the publics interest to retain doctors.

Pay is just one aspect of it, but yes of course doctors deserve so much more pay. I think in the past they had expenses - accomodation, commute etc taken care of. Now when rent is at an all time high, and forced to move around the country - often leaving kids/spouse behind in another part of the UK while the medic lives alone in their working week home with the current cost of living, morale is so low. Work is tough physically and mentally, going home to nobody is tough, missing their family/children, still having huge amounts of debt. Not everyone does private work (most probably dont) and as far as I am aware you cant do private work while still in training i.e as a "junior doctor".

Not all doctors have a shitload of student debt to pay… I know several who, being the children of wealthy doctors themselves, didn’t need a student or tuition fee loan as it was covered by their trust funds. And within five years of graduating (so whilst still junior doctors) their salaries were in the mid £60k region. That was the norm among many of the medics I went to uni with.

I think you're totally missing the point. I said well over 20 years and I have less than 20 years before I retire anyway. In reality with working conditions and morale in the profession, I'll be lucky to make another 5 years.

What a vile thread.

If your salary had been eroded by 35% or so over 15 years (give or take) I bet you would strike if you could.

At the end of the day, doesn't matter how much I think a Dr should be paid. The point is they can get paid double for half the work elsewhere. We have a Dr shortage because of rising demand and people voting with their feet.

Treat people like shit they will leave.

@AngeloMysterioso I'm not sure when you went to uni.

Most (UK) doctors today paid 9k for tuition and probably similar accomodation/living expenses per year. Thats at least 15-18k/year depending where in the UK. Multiplied by 5-7 years and thats £75,000-126,000.

Especially when compared to peers who didnt achieve as high grades etc, who've enjoyed stability and becoming a homeowner and probably earning similar to that of a junior doctor while more able to hold down a relationship/start a family etc. This is before we even talk about the kind of stress and responsibilities at work at often quite young ages. It is a lot.

So you know several who don't have student debt. What does that tell us about junior doctors as a whole? NOTHING

Doctors have to make life or death decisions. If they make a mistake, a person can die. The level of responsibility they bear is extraordinary. This isn’t just about who works more hours, or harder. People in other professions may put in even more hours than a doctor, of gruelling physical labour. But the skill and knowledge that a doctor has to employ, and the potential consequences of them making a mistake while doing so, just don’t compare with any other profession.

There is so much reverse snobbery on this thread, with people simply refusing to acknowledge that there are genuine reasons doctors are (or should be!) highly valued. It isn’t about who might have done better in their A-levels or works more than 40 hours a week - it’s about the levels of skill and responsibility the job actually entails.