Are junior docs really only on £14.09 per hour?

[yawningmorning]

That is so low.

I've seen the headline that you can earn more per hour working in pret.

No wonder they are striking.

I do and thats why I think asking for such a payrise with no real life experience is unresonable, they need to be babysat by a consultant through every decision regarding a patient.

OK, you've totally lost me at "no real life experience" 😅

Yeah and as i said i am not saying wages should be decreased but Uk is on bar with Germany- whats all the fuss about? If doctors in the baltics are not striking junior or qualified what excuse have british junior doctors? I have not seen any news of any strikes in germany either regarding medical workers payrises.

what do they expect 50k salary for a junior doctor who cant even issue a prescription without having to talk to a consultant first?

How much experience can year 1 student doctor have? How many patients has he seen/treated? 0 on his own without a consultant shadowing and advising. He is barely out of uni.

No, junior doctors are all doctors who are not consultants. They include very experienced, very senior doctors, in their 30s and 40s with exams behind them and with families. They operate, do clinics, anaesthetise you, resuscitate you in ED. Junior doctors run the hospital. This strike (and the ones to come) will be impactful.

You really have no idea about how hospitals are run, do you?

Sure, but in the context of this thread, the ones that are in their 30's and 40's aren't earning (or shouldn't still be earning) £14.09/h.

BMA says junior doctors are not qualified to work on their own without a senior doctor and most qualify to senior doctor between ages of 23-35. It also says their salary increases every year- Foundation year 1 being the lowest of course and a couple of years later to 40-60k in speciality training but they still work under a senior doctor- whats wrong with that? Surely with all the responsbility when they complete their studies comes also the higher salary.

My GPs earning are 100k ish yes he is a senior partner but not a bad income for 4 day week and when most patients are pensioners looking for a new script and a chat.

Bloopie. Please just bloop off. You are a total idiot.

They are still paid poorly though, in comparison to other countries. The conditions are worse and the pay is worse.

The consultant may be nominally supervising the juniors’ work but he/she isn’t in doing nights, after hours work, dealing with emergencies, sending people home from ED, doing emergency operations.

There’s no 24 hour cover of seniors physically in the hospital.

There’s no 24 hour cover of seniors physically in the hospital

Apart from right now 😀

But the fact that clinics are cancelled, procedures are cancelled, elective operations are cancelled proves that junior doctors are essential for the hospital to run.

Define poorly paid. I've no idea what the average salaries are for juniors at ages 30 and 40 but it's likely to be higher than £29k.

Unfortunately salaries are highly subjective and we're quite unique as not many countries have as comprehensive a system as ours, which is free at point of use. Ask everyone and they love the NHS but the upshot is that you simply cannot align salaries with systems that have different financial arrangements.

But one thing we can agree on is conditions and I'd wager that if the NHS was a utopian place to work, salary complaints would be almost zero. Fix this and we'd go along way to solving the issues. Trouble is, the government and NHS is run by idiots who can't see further than their noses.

Unfortunately salaries are highly subjective and we're quite unique as not many countries have as comprehensive a system as ours, which is free at point of use. Ask everyone and they love the NHS but the upshot is that you simply cannot align salaries with systems that have different financial arrangements

But that’s part of my point - Australian public hospitals are also free at the point of use. So are NZ hospitals. There are emergency departments, inpatients/outpatients/therapists/out reach clinics, everything the NHS has. Even predominantly private users will often use the public system for some presentations/conditions.

So if Australasian hospitals can offer better conditions for junior doctors and the general public doesn’t argue about it, why can’t the NHS?

The Australian government also heavily subsidises the private system so (presumably, happy to be corrected if wrong) spends more on health than the UK. Yet they still don’t begrudge paying their doctors

lol

Currently in my 3rd year as a doctor in A&E and see around 10-12 patients in a shift - I maybe need to ask the Consultant for their advice a handful of times and most of the time it's just reassurance for what I already know

I really hope you never need to use healthcare with the attitudes you have towards the staff treating you

@Househare while there’s no doubt that academically many doctors are in the top few percent of the population it doesn’t automatically follow that they have gone on to earn more in other professions. The competition is fierce for all these well paid jobs in law/finance/tech, and those that succeed are often those that inspire, communicate, prioritise and work hard as well. Indeed, many of those who succeed are brilliant of all of that and not academically high achievers at all! And many academic high achievers are not that inspirational and can’t lead or communicate. Society values more than just academic ability, though it’s generally doctors and teachers who seem to resent a plumber or electrician earning 6 figures ;).

If you go into a career with fundamentally one employer, you’re always going to feel hard done by. In law, tech, finance the private sector ensures that the reward follows, and that sometimes still means moving overseas. As someone fortunate enough to be well qualified and well paid I’ve worked all over the world, and lived in a few places for extended periods too. I have many friends in medicine scattered around as well, and most would agree. On a European basis our doctors are reasonably well paid. It’s the conditions that are poor. Very poor early on.

If you are in your third year are you still on 29k or has your salary increased from what you were on your first year?

Whats with comparing Uk to Australia- in Australia cleaner earns 24 pounds per hour (average) vs UK 11 pound per her hour.

Why not compare UK to the other European countries where UKs medical workers salaries are above average?

the only doctors whom require senior oversight legally are f1s who cannot sign community prescriptions, prescribe chemotherapy, do the old part two of cremation forms and perform operations on their own.

the rest of the juniors are fully qualified non specialist doctors. Some of them will be training to be a Gp or a specialist consultant and will be being trained (half a day of zoom lectures a week) to become that. The rest of the time their getting on with

Take a psychiatric inpatient ward. The consultant psychiatrist isn’t supervising the sho on how to manage high blood pressure in one of the inpatients. If the consultant trained in some places abroad (we’re people specialise straight out of medical school) the consultant may never have ever prescribed medication for hypertension. The consultant will be managing the patients mental health issues (and hopefully dispensing some pearls of wisdom on to the sho about psychiatric care) but they know about the same or less than the sho on this topic. Same on a surgical inpatient ward - the consultant surgeon will be the one doing the knee op and advising on how to manage the post op care of the knee but they won’t be advising on what to do about a chest infection the patient may get - the junior will be sorting that (with advice from the med reg (more senior junior) if needed.

and for the last time the salary does not automatically increase every year. It does increase from F1 to F2 but after that if you want a salary increase you have to apply for a new job that pays more - like I assume every other job/profession. You don’t finish medical school and step on a conveyor belt to consultant-hood. So like every other job we need to be talking about if juniors earn enough for the job they actually do. Not if the fact that some other doctors working completely different jobs earn differently wages.

the nhs needs junior doctors to function as it is currently set up. These roles are very much service provision not training. This non specialist job of caring for unwell patients in hospitals is itself a responsible job that requires a minimum of five years undergrad study. It should be paid more Regardless of what careers the people doing it may decide to go on and work on the future

*their getting on with the day to day medical care of the patients on the wards

Because Australia also has a free at the point of use public hospital system - where, you know, junior doctors work.

It’s also where many NHS doctors are fleeing to

If we had a magic money tree then yes I would agree but we don't. Doctors are at the top of pile so I imagine the general public will think there are more deserving cases to be dealt with first.

If you're already working regular hours, what are you going to do with the influx of immigrant doctors?

The Times reckons you're targeting NHS doctors by the thousands. Doesn't seem to make much sense.

But in answer to your earlier post, you'd need to speak to our NHS management and government to find out why we're so different. Maybe we're easier to manipulate so they take advantage. I personally wouldn't put up with it but I personally wouldn't move to Oz either, no matter how big the salary.

My brother lives in Oz. It's nice but culturally not for me.

I really don’t think there’s a good understanding of what “junior doctor” means.

If someone has an obstetric emergency in the middle of the night - in a tertiary training hospital - everyone involved in the management will be a junior doctor. The doctor doing the spinal, the person performing the section, the person resuscitating, intubating, ventilating and putting central (umbilical) lines into the baby.

Sure they will al have consultants but unless things go to shit they wouldn’t expect to be woken from sleep.

I can’t answer for them but it has probably increased to point two (34k)

it may however be point two now and forever more if they are in a non-training role (often called a clinical fellow post).
A clinical fellow is a junior doctor who is paid on the training pay scale to do a much needed job.just because other doctors in different jobs earn a good wage that is no reason to not pay the doctors in these jobs a decent wage. there is no automatic pay progression beyond they F1-F2 increase

The Times reckons you're targeting NHS doctors by the thousands. Doesn't seem to make much sense

It doesn’t make any sense because it’s not really true.

NHS doctors are able to work in ED quite easily and can get generic, junior hospital roles but getting on a training scheme for a popular medical/surgical specialty is much harder as they prioritise Australian (and NZ) doctors.

Australia doesn’t recognise UK specialist exams so if anyone is fairly senior they still need to sit exams, even if they were through them in the UK (and they are universally considered to be worse).

Having said that, your junior doctors know all of this and many still want to come…