Are junior docs really only on £14.09 per hour?

[yawningmorning]

That is so low.

I've seen the headline that you can earn more per hour working in pret.

No wonder they are striking.

Sorry but whos earnings havent gone down, my husband did not get any pay rise this year (or last) the company sent an enail out they dont believe in the cost of living rise- reality is there has been a cost and its about 10-25 percent, i mean energy bills are 2.5x what they used to be.

UKs junior salary is same as a consultant earns in the Baltics- their cost of living is same and in some places higher, for example for cucumber costs in the baltics 3.50eur, its like 80-90p in tesco,energy prices are the same,car prices and house prices.

So no british junior doctors are not so hard done by, actually in a pretty good position as a potential is there if they are willing to go for it.

Thank you for the most informative post of the thread.

I think most quote the BMA thing incorrectly (including myself in the past) but from what you're saying, the truth is still that working time/conditions is still determined by a human made situation. It's disgusting really, when there's a solution but no-one is taking action. To me that's gross negligence and the people involved in the decision making should be sacked.

I appreciate what you're saying about the catch 22 but these things are solvable with some planning and proper resource management.

What I think the goverment should do is make studies to become a doctor for free if you have reasonably good exam results (B or higher in all subjects). Some countries do that and they have no shortage of doctors.

That appears to be bollocks.

www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2023&region=150

The Baltics? That's where we are setting the bar now is it?

Why set a bar at Australia,their healthcare system is completely different to national like the ones on Europe.

Fact is UKs doctors salaries are above average on a continent with same
living costs,what more do they want?

@Qazwsxefv on this:

But if there was a pay rise then maybe we could attract enough junior doctors so we weren’t always short staffed so we could finish on time and get breaks and not always be being bullied into overtime.

This isn't the issue, though. There is clearly no shortage of people who want to be doctors. Places are very oversubscribed. The issue is staff retention and again I strongly believe this is related to conditions not pay. And ultimately making each doctor considerably more expensive is unlikely to get you more staffing unless you're operating in a system with infinite resource, which the NHS is not.

I do agree much more with your point about money allowing you to throw it at some of the conditions problems, but I'd rather see that addressed in a much more targeted way (moving grants, childcare grants) than a huge block pay raise.

To be clear, I absolutely think there should be a pay raise for doctors, in that there shouldn't be a pay freeze. But I think the figure being asked for here is very far beyond the realms of reality - so far that it's hard to see how a compromise can be reached.

I don't really have anything else to add to this thread other than I believe that doctors should be paid more and have far better working conditions. This doesn't mean I don't think similarly for other public sector workers.

I also think some of the attitudes on here are deeply weird, ignorant and aggressive.

The issue is staff retention and again I strongly believe this is related to conditions not pay

There was a very informative post above about the issues being with supervision and training.

What bollocks i would know i travel enough, to know how much i spend where- supermarket own brand butter in estonia 200g for 2.69, in tesco 250g for 1.99. Now go check out where the baltic states are on the qualified doctors list,2 of my relatives are doctors in the baltics and have never heard them complain about their income, they have homes,cars and have raised families on that salary. No one should be saying uk should lower salaries but cmon having higher than average continents income for the same profession is not doing exactly badly and no reason to cancel planned procedures after 3 days hiding from them.

www.selver.ee/voi-82-tere-200-g

*3 days,sorry mistyped, 3 years :)

As usual these threads degenerate into quips about the cost of cucumbers and how much doctors may or may not be paid in the Baltics. Total irrelevant nonsense by those incapable of grasping the basics of the matter. I have nothing to add except that I believe junior doctors should be paid a decent wage and to maintain what it was in real terms before this mess is definitely not too big an ask. I wish you all the best.

So people can compare to salaries to Australia on the other side of the workd with a completely different healthcare system but not to a country on the same continent with same living costs (or higher) with the same healthcare system?

It's called market forces Bloopsie although I would guess you wouldn't understand that. Australia pays a lot higher and want our junior doctors so moving there is a totally achievable attractive alternative that many are taking up. It has a direct impact on our pool of junior doctors. That's the relevance of it, as opposed to the total irrelevance of what is going on in the Baltics or the price of cucumbers.

I manufacture something in the Baltics because it is much much cheaper than getting it made here. The cost of living there cannot possibly be higher.

Have you actually been to these countries? Many things are more expensive, even clothes. I can either buy my kids jacket in the UK or Estonia, hmm wonder where they are nearly half cheaper:

The Australian health care system for junior doctors is pretty similar to the NHS, though. My UK trained DH moved from the NHS to Australian public hospitals fairly easily, although Australia is a big place and there were unique experiences in remote areas. Bearing in mind that Aus has a fully functional public, tax funded hospital system that is also free at the point of use.

The difference is though, that no one seems to begrudge junior doctors, in public hospitals earning comparatively better pay. They also don’t resent them earning even more as consultants including <gasp> those that choose to move into private settings.

Why is that? Why do Australians not seem to begrudge their junior doctors, paid for by their taxes, a relatively decent wage?

Yes many times.

But they are already earning a decent wage for a starter position which increases every year?

I dont know a doctor living on breadline claiming universal credit in the UK, do you? All life in affluent neighbourhoods already in their 30s.

And you didnt notice the higher cost of food,electronic and clothes? Its actually very common for the people from the baltics to take easyjet flight to london to shop for clothes and then return the same evening.

But dont take my word for it of course, since you are familiar with one of the countries you would know local popular supermarkets and do the price comparisons yourself.

My DH reads the junior doctors UK Reddit group. There was a doctor there recently asking about food banks

And the junior doctors aren’t settling in affluent suburbs because they’re being shifted around the country every few months. Are you even reading what the NHS junior doctors are saying on this thread?

Yes some junior doctors have money but they are the ones who started out that way ie well off families.

The keyword is “junior”- no real life experience,every decision made has to go through a consultant, not doing life saving surgeries,barely out of uni if out of uni at all,my friend did her foundation years while still going to the uni, i dont know if its same in the UK. The first year they start the salary is lowest like everywhere else with salary increasing with every foundation year.

How can you have read this thread and still not understand about the term 'junior'?

The minimum wage in Latvia is about 4 euros an hour. Not somewhere we need to base our own salaries on.