Page 32 | To wonder what part of this statement reminded Gary L of Nazi Germany?

marmaladeo · 2023-03-11T16:55:15+00:00

This is Suella Braverman's statement Gary Lineker was reacting to when he said "This is just an immeasurably cruel policy directed at the most vulnerable people in language that is not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the 30s" ... https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1633094764865126400 If she was saying she wanted to stop immigration I could understand GL's reaction. But she's not. I don't understand why anyone would not want to "stop the boats" when 1. they're lethal and 2. they're being run by criminal gangs. If GL had made it clear he wanted to stop the boats but thought this policy was the wrong way to do it, then fine. But he didn't - he just made an extremely inflammatory statement. He might be getting lots of love from some quarters, but personally I think he's an egotist who is playing into the hands of the people smugglers.

IClaudine · 12/03/2023 10:58

Clavinova · 12/03/2023 10:33

cakeorwine
Lord Sugar?

Lord Sugar deleted the controversial tweet in your link. Has Gary Lineker deleted his?

Sugar didn't delete his tweets about Lynch. They are not impartial.

twitter.com/Lord_Sugar/status/1603354972317683712?s=20

Also

twitter.com/haveigotnews/status/1634581727296331777?s=20

FurAndFeathers · 12/03/2023 10:58

Rhondaa · 12/03/2023 10:55

'As someone said, the Jewish population are not one homogenous mass with the same views.'

Well yes we've been saying that for ages yet folk kept suggesting one survivor who spoke to Braverman seemed to represent the whole population.

The ones who object to Linekers comments are just as important as the ones who don't and are allowed a voice too.

I think the difference is that no one who supports GL/the holocaust survivors point of view has claimed that they speak for all Jewish people.

conversely posters like @AlisonJo have claimed to spoke on behalf of the Jewish population and you have agreed with that approach.

cakeorwine · 12/03/2023 10:59

Rhondaa · 12/03/2023 10:55

'As someone said, the Jewish population are not one homogenous mass with the same views.'

Well yes we've been saying that for ages yet folk kept suggesting one survivor who spoke to Braverman seemed to represent the whole population.

The ones who object to Linekers comments are just as important as the ones who don't and are allowed a voice too.

This discussion is about the language used - I don't think I have heard your views on words like

Illegal / Illegals
Swarm
Invasion
Repeated use of illegal immigrants (when they are people who have crossed the Channel)

Do you think this language is designed to "other" people, to dehumanise them?

And I haven't heard this being discussed on the media at all - the actual language being used.

trusttheprocess23 · 12/03/2023 11:01

AnElegantChaos · 12/03/2023 10:40

I don't even think some PP's actually care about the details and context of immigrants arriving in the UK, it's just hatred of 'others'. Whether that would be Jewish Germans in the 1930s that were actually native born, or foreign nationals coming to the UK in the 21stc. It comes from the same position of absolute ignorance and bigotry, a massive, misdirected blame narrative. Always blaming others for their lot, rather than the Govt's economic policies, for instance. "Oh oh but but some Muslim men raped...sharia law bla bla bla" - the Islamaphobia on this thread is horrible, even the coded comments. Try engaging with actual rape statistics by white British men.

I usually despise the phrase "I know which side you'd have picked in 1930s Germany", but honestly, calling a spade a spade, there's a few folk on here that would have gleefully marked a certain party at the ballot box in 1933 and would have welcomed the subsequent dictatorship. And you can come at me if you want for saying that, I have no f**ks left to give. I've met people like you IRL so your bluster goes right over my head now.

I never realised just how much hatred towards minority groups still existed in the UK. And I remember the BNP and National Front of the last century very clearly. And having previously worked in a professional capacity with anti-racist groups for a long time, the last 8 years has been very illuminating and like nothing I could have imagined even 10/20 years ago. The increase in the use of inflammatory and dehumanising language is beyond depressing because it seems to be deemed acceptable again (from the extreme left as well as across the right), and sadly it's alive and kicking on MN.

@AlisonJo I've no idea if you're Jewish or not, but my DH is and he says to take his 'community's' name out your mouth, and perhaps stop implying that Jews are a homogenous group all united with the same viewpoints. He sees no issues with GL's tweet in the slightest. You don't actually care about Jews, only your political affiliation and how you can use them to score cheap points.

I'm out.

❤️

I'm Jewish and with your DH. I absolutely hate it when people try to use us Jews as a way to "legitimately" hate others.

These are people I've never trust to not turn against me if that was where the wind was blowing...

SoTedious · 12/03/2023 11:02

Yes let's hope so. We need fresh new talent.

Why? Who would be better? Lineker is one of the best and most experienced presenters around, with a stellar professional career and knowledge of football to back it up. He does not need the BBC - he could get much more money elsewhere but luckily for them he loves MOTD and believes in (and can afford to work in) public broadcasting. They would be mad not to try to keep him - Tim Davie himself has said that success for him is getting Lineker back on the air.

IClaudine · 12/03/2023 11:03

Jay Rayner also often tweets on political issues. Why hasn't he been asked to step back from the show he presents?

twitter.com/jayrayner1/status/1634596054824886273?s=20

CurlyhairedAssassin · 12/03/2023 11:08

Have only had time to read the first 7 pages or so. But who on earth advised the government to use the slogan "Stop the boats"? Did they not realise the uproar and outrage it would cause. "Stop the traffickers" would have been so much better if that is really their intention.

The trafficking situation IS a huge problem and all this Lineker furore has sadly diverted people's attention from it. Ask anyone who works in law enforcement about trafficking and you'll know what a scourge it is. Not only are our law enforcement agencies being overwhelmed trying to deal with it, but any successful illegal trafficking of people to the UK just makes the trafficking gangs richer and stronger. The exploitation of vulnerable people just gets worse and worse. Those vulnerable human beings are lied to, sold false promises, give up their life savings to these bastards as they are told that the UK is the land of milk and honey and they'll just be given a house and money to live off. They have no idea of the cost of living over here now. It IS different to the 20th century when for the most part hard work meant you could make a life for yourself, as housing was affordable even on lower wages.

When people this century work their arses off and are only just scraping by, then this creates multiple issues. Resentment amongst the struggling working population towards those coming to the UK and being given free housing etc. Shock to the system for those who come to the UK expecting to immediately make a better life for themselves and/or family back home, even though many don't speak the language or have the right skillset. It is not morally right to say "oh but we have shortages in eg the care sector or hospitality sector, or very low paid menial work like agriculture - so the country would benefit from them coming here to do those jobs." Until those sectors pay a living wage we would just create a "them and us" situation of asylum seekers and economic migrants ending up in low paid menial work living in HMOs.

Add in the fact that people coming to this country are now often not able to be housed near friends or family already here as some councils in the south of the country do not have the capacity to support/house them. To their surprise they end up being moved to another part of the country where they don't have friends or family. Again, I think it's morally questionable for councils and hotels around the country to receive large sums of money to receive people. I don't believe for one minute that councils are putting that money back into improving infrastructure to support asylum seekers. They are not increasing the number of school places or GP practices with that money. They are using it purely to balance their books. In my city nearly all the queries for in year school transfers that I take at my school are from people newly-arrived in the country. There are no school places for them where they are housed. Instead they are allocated school places 2 or 3 bus places away, which does not then fit in easily around parents' jobs.

We CAN'T have uncontrolled migration forever more, whether that is asylum seekers or economic migrants, because it isn't fair to anyone. But the slogan "Stop the boats" is a huge shot in the foot for the Tories.

BustyLaRoux · 12/03/2023 11:09

@Janiie
Well yes we've been saying that for ages yet folk kept suggesting one survivor who spoke to Braverman seemed to represent the whole population.

Literally nobody said this.

hettie · 12/03/2023 11:09

There are currently 3 million people waiting bover 18 weeks on an NHS waiting list and around 380,000 people who've been waiting a year long. And the governments huge focus and priority is legislation parliamentary time and effort to focus on the 48.000 people who came across the channel on small boats.
It's so obviously an attempt to stir up strong feelings and divert us away from many real issues

itsgettingweird · 12/03/2023 11:15

It's awful, you're one of the most polite posters I've come across and this hectoring and sneering over information you have politely posted that was asked for is bizarre.

Yes clearly facts have unsettled some.

The fact was irrelevant to the conversation ITO of some. That's all. Regardless of what percentage of Migrants are men this is about the language used around them. Calling them illegal - which is incorrect when they are asylum seekers.

I could politely post a fact about how much they pay to cross. It doesn't change the context of the discussion!

And there's discussion in this or another thread about why men tend to come over first. It's quite an interesting point.

Clavinova · 12/03/2023 11:15

BewareTheLibrarians
Speaking of Brexit - one side of the debate was allowed to use dehumanising language (“swarms” for eg)

David Cameron used the word 'swarm' in 2015.

FurAndFeathers
Have you told the Holocaust survivor who said the same thing that she’s being disrespectful?

The Holocaust survivor wrongly accuses Suella Braverman of having used the word 'swarms'.

itsgettingweird · 12/03/2023 11:16

BustyLaRoux · 12/03/2023 10:50

This is all getting a bit silly….

It's designed to derail.

Best to ignore says the poster who's also just responded

cakeorwine · 12/03/2023 11:18

This was the Home Secretary in Parliament the day after a fire bombing attack (a terrorist attack) at Dover

hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2022-10-31/debates/F189CA88-FDF3-4018-905C-1CC8A1B76E28/WesternJetFoilAndManstonAsylumProcessingCentres

"The Government are resolute in our determination to make illegal entry to the UK unviable. It is unnecessary, lethally dangerous, unfair on migrants who play by the rules and unfair on the law-abiding patriotic majority of British people. It is also ruinously expensive and it makes all of us less safe"

"The British people deserve to know which party is serious about stopping the invasion on our southern coast, and which party is not. Some 40,000 people have arrived on the south coast this year alone"

"Let them try. I know that I speak for the decent, law-abiding, patriotic majority of British people from every background who want safe and secure borders. Labour is running scared of the fact that this party might just deliver them."

You have to wonder when the next "patriotic British person" will do something to try to stop the "invasion" happening on the South Coast - and how they could be inspired to do such a thing?

CurlyhairedAssassin · 12/03/2023 11:19

hettie · 12/03/2023 11:09

There are currently 3 million people waiting bover 18 weeks on an NHS waiting list and around 380,000 people who've been waiting a year long. And the governments huge focus and priority is legislation parliamentary time and effort to focus on the 48.000 people who came across the channel on small boats.
It's so obviously an attempt to stir up strong feelings and divert us away from many real issues

Well, yes, clearly NHS waiting lists are getting longer and longer. Do you not think there is ANY correlation between that and the growing population of the UK? I'm not unwise enough to assumt that that it is JUST down to inadequate NHS funding from the Tories. The NHS issues are complex and multi-faceted. But it's not rocket science to work out that an increasing population (whatever the age group) means increased GP, dentist and hospital places.

MarshaBradyo · 12/03/2023 11:20

itsgettingweird · 12/03/2023 11:15

It's awful, you're one of the most polite posters I've come across and this hectoring and sneering over information you have politely posted that was asked for is bizarre.

Yes clearly facts have unsettled some.

The fact was irrelevant to the conversation ITO of some. That's all. Regardless of what percentage of Migrants are men this is about the language used around them. Calling them illegal - which is incorrect when they are asylum seekers.

I could politely post a fact about how much they pay to cross. It doesn't change the context of the discussion!

And there's discussion in this or another thread about why men tend to come over first. It's quite an interesting point.

Ok but this was your post

‘A lot aren't actually young men.

The photos taken by the media have been proven to be misleading. There's info on Twitter.

Often the pictures you see of men don't show the men and all the woman and children also on the beach or walking.’

That’s why it became relevant to the thread because you introduced it. Surely you can see that?

I didn’t just post the stat unrelated to anything. It was in response to this.

Blossomtoes · 12/03/2023 11:21

Clavinova · 12/03/2023 10:33

cakeorwine
Lord Sugar?

Lord Sugar deleted the controversial tweet in your link. Has Gary Lineker deleted his?

No, because he has the courage of his convictions.

IClaudine · 12/03/2023 11:21

Clavinova · 12/03/2023 11:15

BewareTheLibrarians
Speaking of Brexit - one side of the debate was allowed to use dehumanising language (“swarms” for eg)

David Cameron used the word 'swarm' in 2015.

FurAndFeathers
Have you told the Holocaust survivor who said the same thing that she’s being disrespectful?

The Holocaust survivor wrongly accuses Suella Braverman of having used the word 'swarms'.

But she rightly accused SB of using the word "invasion".

MarshaBradyo · 12/03/2023 11:22

CurlyhairedAssassin · 12/03/2023 11:08

Have only had time to read the first 7 pages or so. But who on earth advised the government to use the slogan "Stop the boats"? Did they not realise the uproar and outrage it would cause. "Stop the traffickers" would have been so much better if that is really their intention.

The trafficking situation IS a huge problem and all this Lineker furore has sadly diverted people's attention from it. Ask anyone who works in law enforcement about trafficking and you'll know what a scourge it is. Not only are our law enforcement agencies being overwhelmed trying to deal with it, but any successful illegal trafficking of people to the UK just makes the trafficking gangs richer and stronger. The exploitation of vulnerable people just gets worse and worse. Those vulnerable human beings are lied to, sold false promises, give up their life savings to these bastards as they are told that the UK is the land of milk and honey and they'll just be given a house and money to live off. They have no idea of the cost of living over here now. It IS different to the 20th century when for the most part hard work meant you could make a life for yourself, as housing was affordable even on lower wages.

When people this century work their arses off and are only just scraping by, then this creates multiple issues. Resentment amongst the struggling working population towards those coming to the UK and being given free housing etc. Shock to the system for those who come to the UK expecting to immediately make a better life for themselves and/or family back home, even though many don't speak the language or have the right skillset. It is not morally right to say "oh but we have shortages in eg the care sector or hospitality sector, or very low paid menial work like agriculture - so the country would benefit from them coming here to do those jobs." Until those sectors pay a living wage we would just create a "them and us" situation of asylum seekers and economic migrants ending up in low paid menial work living in HMOs.

Add in the fact that people coming to this country are now often not able to be housed near friends or family already here as some councils in the south of the country do not have the capacity to support/house them. To their surprise they end up being moved to another part of the country where they don't have friends or family. Again, I think it's morally questionable for councils and hotels around the country to receive large sums of money to receive people. I don't believe for one minute that councils are putting that money back into improving infrastructure to support asylum seekers. They are not increasing the number of school places or GP practices with that money. They are using it purely to balance their books. In my city nearly all the queries for in year school transfers that I take at my school are from people newly-arrived in the country. There are no school places for them where they are housed. Instead they are allocated school places 2 or 3 bus places away, which does not then fit in easily around parents' jobs.

We CAN'T have uncontrolled migration forever more, whether that is asylum seekers or economic migrants, because it isn't fair to anyone. But the slogan "Stop the boats" is a huge shot in the foot for the Tories.

"Stop the traffickers"

It’s an interesting point. I suppose as a call to action I’m wondering what it means exactly. Simplicity usually works better - for both parties hence recycling Take Back Control line recently (bizarrely!)

Rhondaa · 12/03/2023 11:23

MarshaBradyo · 12/03/2023 11:20

Ok but this was your post

‘A lot aren't actually young men.

The photos taken by the media have been proven to be misleading. There's info on Twitter.

Often the pictures you see of men don't show the men and all the woman and children also on the beach or walking.’

That’s why it became relevant to the thread because you introduced it. Surely you can see that?

I didn’t just post the stat unrelated to anything. It was in response to this.

Show quote history

I get it even if others are pretending they dont.

Seriously, 'most are men' 'no they aren't' 'yes they are here are the stats' 'well that's just irrelevant derailing nonsense' .

Clavinova · 12/03/2023 11:23

IClaudine
Jay Rayner also often tweets on political issues. Why hasn't he been asked to step back from the show he presents?

He hasn't referenced 1930s Germany.
He didn't have a BBC complaint upheld against him only a few months before;
www.bbc.co.uk/contact/ecu/gary-lineker-and-twitter
He's not one of the "BBC’s highest profile stars."
He didn't refuse to delete the tweet when asked...

MarshaBradyo · 12/03/2023 11:24

Rhondaa · 12/03/2023 11:23

I get it even if others are pretending they dont.

Seriously, 'most are men' 'no they aren't' 'yes they are here are the stats' 'well that's just irrelevant derailing nonsense' .

Show quote history

It’s so bad on here at times.

I ignore a lot these days but still

cakeorwine · 12/03/2023 11:24

CurlyhairedAssassin · 12/03/2023 11:19

Well, yes, clearly NHS waiting lists are getting longer and longer. Do you not think there is ANY correlation between that and the growing population of the UK? I'm not unwise enough to assumt that that it is JUST down to inadequate NHS funding from the Tories. The NHS issues are complex and multi-faceted. But it's not rocket science to work out that an increasing population (whatever the age group) means increased GP, dentist and hospital places.

Show quote history

Well - if it's young men who are arriving, then I guess they won't be on the NHS waiting lists.

And we are taking in immigrants through our skills immigration policy so we can fill workforce gaps in the NHS to help tackle the waiting list.

BustyLaRoux · 12/03/2023 11:26

itsgettingweird oh I know! It’s so hard to bow out isn’t it? And I think that’s the point. When people start enflaming things with insults and unhelpful offensive language, we all get a bit wound up. I can almost feel the feathers being fluffed up and the chests puffing out. PPs who’ve previously said sensible things being drawn into silly tit for tat arguments. It’s just all so bloody unhelpful. A sensible debate isn’t going to be had on here. I’ve enjoyed reading some of the comments. The stats are interesting. And I’ll admit some people really have made me laugh. (Not everyone intentionally!) But I think all this fluffing and puffing means we lose sight of the issues. And those are around language, freedom of speech, the responsibility of the government, of the BBC and yes, immigration, traffickers, compassion, resources, growing poverty. Slinging insults about thickies or Guardian readers, racists, lefties, the woke….. it’s just all really sad and unhelpful.
Sigh!

cakeorwine · 12/03/2023 11:27

Clavinova · 12/03/2023 11:23

IClaudine
Jay Rayner also often tweets on political issues. Why hasn't he been asked to step back from the show he presents?

He hasn't referenced 1930s Germany.
He didn't have a BBC complaint upheld against him only a few months before;
www.bbc.co.uk/contact/ecu/gary-lineker-and-twitter
He's not one of the "BBC’s highest profile stars."
He didn't refuse to delete the tweet when asked...

It's political opinions.

Brian Cox tweets about politics

Should he go?

Anything can be controversial nowadays or contentious. Should they all go?

Axahooxa · 12/03/2023 11:27

I lived in Australia when they introduced a similar policy. It was also controversial, but it stopped (most of) the boats.
@marmaladeo Australia have committed atrocities and have an extremely cruel immigration policy where they send children as well as adults to a remote island. Indefinitely. They destroy hope and people’s lives along with it.

Gary Lineker is very much speaking for me and lots of other voices trying to be heard opposing our country’s cruel immigration policy.