To think that responsive/attachment parenting doesn't give a flying fuck about maternal wellbeing?

[Santaslittlehelper83]

....or the family unit. I recently joined the fb group 'Beyond Sleep Training' as was interested in some different ideas for managing our babies frequent night awakenings. CIO/CC is not for me but I'm not adverse to more gentler methods of ST. I was really disturbed by some posts by quite clearly desperate mums, and the advice in a nutshell seemed to boil down to....'that's normal baby behaviour, deal with it!' There was to be fair some advice re tweaking routines etc, and messages of solidarity but nothing else. A lot of posters were referencing their toddlers/preschoolers who hadn't slept more than 2 hours consecutively since birth...on what planet is that helpful to a sleep deprived mum at the end of her rope!? I think it was almost competetive, like a token of honour with generally a lot of sneering towards families who chose a different approach. I also didn't see the logic of lumping all sleep training methods together....someone sensibly suggested removing nipple gently when baby finished night feed to avoid this becoming a sleep association....this was shot down by a very heavy handed post by the admin.

Of course babies needs are paramount, but Mums (and Dads) matter too.

It literally doesn't. It works for SOME babies.

I wonder about this "village". What if some of these wise older women who are supposed to be helping suggest sleep training? Are they there for experience and wisdom, or just to be unpaid labour?

I think this is true I had easy babies and I'll be honest I think I was a bit like oh it's not that hard without realising I was lucky. Only realising as my kids are getting older and totally crap at sleeping now so I realise that that not sleeping can finish you off, newborn bubble or not!

I am not a sleep consultant but worked for one for a while. She was/is very expensive but had an amazing reputation. I think because she’s expensive, most people who came to her were in a really desperate state and many of them had tried other sleep consultants or online methods. (I mean hallucinating and collapsing from exhaustion.) Most of them had babies who would be described as “high needs” - clingy, cranky, couldn’t be put down etc.
Every. Single. One of those hundreds of babies started sleeping 6-8 hour blocks minimum at night and took proper naps during the day after 3 days of sleep consultation.
Was there crying? Yes. But STILL LESS, much less, crying overall than before and no CIO. And the babies ate better and were happy and settled in the day. The whole family always benefited.
So I am a huge proponent of sleep training, establishing routines etc. because I have seen how transformative proper sleep is, over and over in real life.

Virtually every adult you know, would have been brought up that way.

This is very culturally dependent. My Asian DH slept with his parents until he started primary school. My "village" ie. my mum and her friends - all said don't worry about bringing them into your bed as babies/toddlers. They'll grow out of it eventually, and it won't make them clingy in the day time.

While I wouldn't judge anyone who sleep trained, I don't think it's wrong and martyring yourself not to want to.

My dd (and I) also thrived on Gina ford. Deviation from the very exacting timings caused her a lot of anxiety. But I didn’t do it until breastfeeding was well established. I did it because a neighbour suggested and I was absolutely at the end of my tether as dd was all over the place. Zero sleep one day (stopped falling asleep whilst breastfeeding from 6 weeks), very sleepy the next (and falling asleep whilst feeding after a few minutes) to the point I struggled to feed her, normal baby the 3rd. Rinse, repeat. Getting up at 6am to pump for the nighttime bottle feed and giving it at the prescribed time late at night was a life saver for me. One big feed then got her through the night. Happy baby, happy mum.

I know a lot of mums have had issues with her method. But it saved my sanity.

Co-slept with mine until she went into her own bed about 4 years.

As a single working mum sleep was more important than any kind of weird competition about how sleep deprived I was.

My DS had serious health issues and didn’t sleep for longer than an hour a time, usually less, and I was exhausted. However, sleep training wouldn’t change that and wouldn’t have been safe. He’s still not a great sleeper age 7. My DD didn’t sleep well at all, but compared to him as a healthy baby, breastfeeding constantly was a relief. We also worked out my DH and I have adhd (going for diagnosis) so if children have it, could be why I produce terrible sleepers.

I think it’s usually fine to remove a nipple when a baby’s asleep, though not so much for sensation becoming conflated with sleep, just to give yourself a break. However, I disagree re attachment parenting. I found it a benefit as a mother to reduce the pressure and focus on my relationship with my baby. I think it can be beneficial and all that contact can help oxytocin production and focusing on you and them together. All mums are different people though, so I think if it doesn’t work for you, find a different method. Babies are not, in general, neurologically able to sleep from very early. Their brains have not developed a sleep-wake cycle that matches adults for biological reasons. I do think the pressure to fight that rather than accepting it and finding ways around it can be unhelpful. For us, my DH took my DD very early morning and I got a couple of hours sleep and that really helped. Also, just reminding myself that phase would end helped.

I tried really hard to be that parent but in the end the obsession with perfection lead to PND. Because it goes hand in hand with BLW, baby wearing, cloth nappies and toddler breastfeeding you also feel you have to excel at all these things too. Not to mention the right books and toys (woke and wooden), no TV (yeah right)…

Can you imagine a man beating himself up about any of this? I learned that my husband congratulated himself for simply existing whilst I berated myself for using a buggy

I discovered accidentally the benefits of a small amount of crying with my second for nap times at least (which are important for night time sleeping).

Having another child on the go I couldn't always get to her immediately but in the couple of minutes it took to remove poster paint from my fingers or whatever I was doing with eldest, she generally fell back to sleep for up to another hour.

With the first I was straight there then wondered why he was grumpy all afternoon.

I was also a big fan of rhythmical patting at night and moving away slowly. There is so much in between picking them up instantly and letting them scream for hours that it is not a one or other option.

You are being unreasonable in that, as I’m sure you know, there are vastly wide ranging schools of thought from Gina Ford to wear/sleep with/ never leave your baby for a minute. Different things suit different people. For example my maternal well-being would have been adversely affected if someone had pressurised me into a Gina Ford style routine because I think it’s pretty inhuman but others swear by it. Go to forums where you are in sympathy and leave others to their own, and perfectly valid, views.

I do agree that there are other groups that are just as extreme just the other way. Despite (gently) sleep training mine I don't think there is anything wrong with co sleeping and following your babies lead and just waiting it out. I think parents should just do what works for them.

It = boy or girl but I don't know which yet?!! People who think that it's better, or even some kind of moral duty, for a mother to spend her child's pre-school years with no proper sleep, with an exhausted child, wasting those precious first years are frankly insane. Just to avoid an hour of crying? A parent who is rested and alert is a better, safer and happier parent. The same goes for a well-rested child with a safe, energetic and happy parent. And what about women who actually need to work to bring in income for the family? Are they supposed to do that without sleeping at night?

I do agree that there are other groups that are just as extreme just the other way. Despite (gently) sleep training mine I don't think there is anything wrong with co sleeping and following your babies lead and just waiting it out. I think parents should just do what works for them.
Agree with this.

I've no time for people who argue "if you put your child down ever and let them cry for more than 10 seconds you're causing lasting trauma", but also have no time for people who spout garbage like "I come first and I sit back and laugh at parents experiencing a restless baby because I made sure I sleep trained my baby to sleep 12 hours from 10 weeks old."

What do they want? A pat on the back or a gold star for being the bestest ever parent in the world?

Babies have different personalities and parents have different parenting styles. If someone doesn't want to sleep train and they're having a rough patch, don't jump in with sleep training evangelism. If someone wants to sleep train and are finding it hard, don't jump in telling them co-sleeping is the answer to everything. People need to LISTEN to the parent instead of seeing an opportunity to push their own brilliant parenting.

The problem is, that there really isn't any magic bullet to solve baby sleep issues. I don't think there's any actual evidence that sleep training works.

There really isn't any other choice but to "deal with it".

I know, it's hell on toast. Hardest thing I've ever, ever done.

That's the reality.

I wish society would be realistic about motherhood- it's not an apatamil advert.

It's usually the 'attachment parents' who have marriage issues when their kids are 7+ and still sleeping in the 'big bed' with mum whilst dad is turfed into the spare room. Their choice, their marriage and their divorce ultimately

Same. Some babies react really badly to sleep training, and mine were like that. It was reallt nice to have a place where I could throw away all the sleep training expectations.

Well that's a helpful stereotype

DS1 was a terrible sleeper at first, and I initially made the mistake of "protecting" DH as he had work - never mind the fact my body was still healing and I was starting to show signs of PND.

I remember saying to a mum at a toddler group that I was so exhausted my husband (who was about to head out to work) shook me awake to deal with DS1 as I was sleeping through him screaming inches away from my head. The mum looked horrified "well I don't think I could EVER stay asleep like that!" As though I was a failure at maternal instincts.

My friend (who is a lovely mother, and I would trust her 100% with my lads) also had PND and once drove her screaming DD to her husband's work, gave him the baby, told him "I'm going for a walk, I need to get away from her" and walked out.

We sleep trained at about 3-4 months. It's not helpful to baby for mummy to end up hospitalised for PND, or for mummy and daddy's relationship to hit the rocks. Baby is part of a family and the family needs to work for everyone in it.

@QuertyGirl true though

Completely agree. Sleep trained 2 DC and the last one I didn't have to because I managed to gently wean him of bad habits early on.
I tuen into a horrible person when I don't sleep. We have a super happy family and everyone sleeps (most of the time!)

Not here it's not and it hasn't happened to anybody I know.

But if that belief makes you feel better about your choices, you carry on.

It don’t agree. With my first son i tried sleep training and Gina Ford and even had 2 ladies from the local Child Healthcare -group over who “helped” me with sleep training. However, my son refused to be trained… he would cry for hours without sleeping. The ladies swaddled him and he’d wrestle and cry and scream without end until he looked so red and warm i was afraid something would happen to him.

After a year of not sleeping we concluded that he just needed very little sleep compared to other babies. We stopped trying letting him sleep during the day and then at night he would finally sleep.

So i don’t know, but if your child won’t sleep in AP , what guarantee is there that you get sleep when doing sleep training?

With my second child we did cosleeping from the start. He was a much relaxter baby though. We all had very good nights together. Never the thought occurred to me “I which we used sleep training so our nights would be better”.

We don't listen to them - there are numerous threads on here where women complain about their mother's or MIL's "outdated" advice....

I would have greatly benefited from a routine/Gina Ford style approach with my first but was sadly in a group that was all natural/breastfeeding/attachment style. It's very much a middle class insecurity to my mind, and the person upthread who said it's a form of insecurity is spot on.

For those saying that sleep training doesn’t work with all babies I have to say I disagree.

I’m on a Ferber Method Sleep Training group on facebook and most of us start a thread asking for reassurance before starting as we don’t think it’s gonna work, my baby is absolutely high needs, strong willed, cranky, clingy, boobmonster, you name it. I guess we all think our babies are very special and different from the others but the moms always come back saying it did work! Because they actually want it to work and spend some time reading and studying it before applying it.

What I have seen on MN is people asking for help with sleep and saying “please don’t suggest CC/CIO because I KNOW it won’t work with my baby” or “I am at my wits end after months of waking up every 45min, don’t suggest CC/CIO as we once left him to cry for 5min in the middle of the night and he got in such a state so I know it’s not going to work!”

The thing with sleep training is that you have to read, study and choose a method that suits you. Then you spend a week or two sorting out their routine first so they are not over/undertired and then you start on a proper evening at bedtime and you’re consistent for a few days. You don’t just let them scream randomly after you’re trying to settle them with rocking, boob and cuddles for 2 hours in the middle of the night. That is not sleep traning!

I 100% agree with a previous poster that worked with a sleep consultant, it does work if made properly. Baby might not STTN, I know mine didn’t, we kept an early morning feed for ages and she still woke up randomly once a week perhaps before turning 1 year old.

Yes, like all things in life it might not work with a very small minority, but it’s like saying broccoli is healthy and a few are allergic to it… It doesn’t change the advice that broccoli is healthy.